Just want to make two points:

• Since I made this template, I get to decide what the colors are, unless it conflicts substanially with another template.
• I am unsure about where to place several weapons, such as the Mako Gun and the Souba, in the "Weapon Classes" or the "Specific Weapons" section, so someone who has played VII and watched Advent children can sort that out.

8bit BlackMage 22:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

		Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - {{{time}}}
		Basically, I think you should only refer recurring weapons and weapon classes, the rest stays in weapon lists. Every game should have it's weapon list too: I can add them to the template. RoF weapon list should be merged with CC weapon list: Spin-offs, same weapons? - Whatever, they share the title.

		Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - {{{time}}}
		Awnser me man! The Weapon template should refer recurring weapons too and I don't see any recurring staff, claw, rod, bow, axe or harp! The Mako Gun and The Souba only show up on a movie on the series and I don't think they're important enough to be featured on the template. The should be either on a list of Guns\Katanas and on their game's list of weapons - in this case, Final Fantasy VII.

CrowdedEdit

		Drake Clawfang - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 06:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
		Admittedly thanks to me in part, the Weapons template is becoming crowded. Hey, FF recycles a lot of names, you know this. So I was thinking we split "Specific Weapons" into "Specific Weapons" for unique and iconic weapons like the Buster Sword and Gunblade, etc, and "Recurring Weapons", for, well, recurring weapons. Come vote in the Soul Shrine and take one of my Final Fantasy quizzes.

		Hexedy - Rathalos: World Tour/All Ass Sword TALK - My companions' feelings have been etched upon this body. I'll change this eternal darkness into light! Heaven and Earth! One who matches the gods! CHOUGINGA GURREN-LAGANN! {{{time}}}
		Do such.

Another specific weapon Edit

		Coeur du Lion Bleu - "Be careful, dear friend, lest you fall into the endless ocean of stars..." - 水風死 TALK - Has cold feet.
		Do you think we should put the Cerberus on this, since we have everyone else's specific weapon? Or is it here and I just don't see it?

Cleaning up this template Edit

Though this is a very informative and much-needed template, I feel that it could be cleaned up a little bit.

• Several of the "Specific Weapons" are not really notable, or could easily be merged into other articles. I know this isn't Wikipedia or anything, but putting Femme Fatale, a two-sentence article with a little infobox, into this template only serves to clutter it up. As well, some of the FFXII weapons (Zodiac Spear, Yagyu Darkblade, Tournesol and a few others) aren't really all that important besides being "ultimate" weapons that are hard to get.
• There's far too many Recurring Weapons. It might not be a bad idea to remove some of the articles in the template, or merge them into more general articles: for example, the Katana article could hold all of the recurring Katanas, or perhaps make a "Recurring Katana" article with infoboxes for each weapon.
• The "Weapon Classes" section contains both classes of the same weapon (Swords, Bows, Axes, etc.) and types of different weapons with the same prefix (Mythril Equipment, Flame Equipment, etc). I can see why these were put together, but it may not be a bad idea to add in a "Types of weapons", similar to the Armor template.
• I have placed the Sealed Weapons, Celestial Weapons and Mythic Weapons articles under the Specific Weapons header. I felt that this represented them better.

If nobody has any objections, I will make these changes myself, but I'll wait for a few days to see if anyone else has any other ideas. WarxePB 23:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't like any of your ideas in general, specially the second, which in my opinion is ridiculous. I do think that the last point is clever though, and I don't really see a need in the third, since the section, as it was originally called "Weapon Types" pretty much covered everything, but a change could be done. I've said my point. - Henryacores^ 00:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

		8bit BlackMage - Beyond the Sky TALK - Why do chemists call helium, curium, and barium 'the medical elements'? Because, if you can't 'helium' or 'curium', you... um... ._.; - 00:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
		EDIT CONFLICT: Yeah, articles like Femme Fatale probably shouldn't even exist. Tournesol I would keep, it appears in TA2 as well. Are you suggesting that articles like Murasame and Asura (Weapon) should be scrapped and fused into one article called "Recurring Katanas" I think that's a bit too much, the Katana page itself lists a few of the recurring weapons. Also, it's good to link to recurring weapons such as those. How could you not have an article devoted to the Masamune? ._. The thing is, how would you find a word to discern between types of weapons as in "form and shape", i.e Spear/Bow/Axe, and "Element/Materia;", such as Bronze/Gold/Flame? It's kind of a good idea, but I'm not sure how to split it up with wording. That part of the template isn't too crowded anyway. Lulz, last year I forgot to answer Henry on the issue at the top of the page. o.o

		Xenomic TALK - 00:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
		Ok, my input: 1) I can agree with this. I've noticed this with some other templates, such as the Accessory template, that has Bastok Ring that is pretty worthless to even keep around to begin with. I was actually thinking of purging the template myself of unworthy things like those. 2) I don't know about this one. Granted, there MAY be too many, but take a look at some other temnplates, and you'll see they're just as crowded (Magic Template anyone?). 3) Hmm....8Bit already has this one. 4) That's fine by me too ^^

So I edited the template. Other categories for the "Specific and Recurring Sets" could include Crystal and Gold, as there were a few mentions of Crystal Swords and Golden Axes (respectively) in the weapon lists, though I'll let you guys sort that out. Also, I took out the Femme Fatale (and am going to nominate that page for deletion), but left pretty much everything else intact. I realize that my suggestion of merging non-notable recurring weapons into one page sort of defeats the purpose of having a Recurring Weapons section, so again I'll let you guys deal with that. Otherwise, hopefully it looks better. 24.78.39.15 00:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Imp Halberd and Onion Swords are the only appearances of Imp and Onion Equipment as weapons so they get a link on specific and recurring weapons. Also, Femme Fatale was added, since this is not wikipedia and we don't promote deletionism. - Henryacores^ 01:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Re-organizing Edit

I suggest we re-organize some of the pages here.

Yagyu Darkblade, Wyrmhero Blade, Impartisan, Sagittarius, - single weapon in a single game, not notable. Delete these.

"Zantetsuken" - the page says its a weapon, an ability, a summon attack, so why is it on this template? Retool as an Ability page and add to the Summon template like Hellfire and Mega Flare, and to the Enemy Ability template.

Souba, Dual Hound, Velvet Nightmare, Femme Fatal - Not sure about these, they're signature weapons but they all have only one appearance in one game/movie. Not sure if they warrant their own pages, especially since they all only have like, one or two paragraphs each.

Sword of Kings, Treaty Blade, Mythgraven Blade - only come from one game each, but are important to the plot and are somewhat signature weapons. I'm thinking keep these as is, but am not sure.

Fixed Dice - their damage calculation formula is important, but the weapon isn't notable enough for its own page. Still, we shouldn't just vape the content. Suggestions?

Materia Blade - recurring, move to the Recurring section.

Well, there's my thoughts. Drake Clawfang 05:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Many pages nominated for deletion, many others moved around on the template. Drake Clawfang 02:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Etymology saves pages, methinks. The acquiring section for XII weapons seems to be useful as a general page filler as well. Well... I suppose you could do that for nearly every Loot-intensive XII item... hmm. 8bit 03:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. There's a lot of Bazaar items that require rare loot, but we don't have pages for them. We do have the Bazaar page itself, which lists the Loot items needed to unlock a purchase, and the Loot page which tells you where to acquire them. Drake Clawfang 03:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The Yagyu Darkblade, however, did have a rather long list of methods to obtain required Loot. The Etymology is also a clincher. I'll go over some of these VFDd pages and see. Also, when you VFD a page, leave the existing info there if the page isn't vandalism/spam, please. 8bit 03:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Must fulfill one of these two requirements:

• Three appearances.
• Plot-important.

In the case of films, I'd give it a page if it's a rather unique weapon. So, Souba.  ILHI 12:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Amount of AppearancesEdit

		Xenomic TALK - 22:03, September 12, 2009 (UTC)
		Alright, so I think it's safe to say that the bare minimum amount of appearances (not including sequels) for a weapon to have its own article would be either 4 or 5 right now. Of course, I'll leave that up to you guys, but I think that's a reasonable amount, since Armor has 4 as its minimum amount of appearances

dirge of cerebus weapons Edit

hey im currently playing dirge of cerebus. do you know of a shotgun styled weapon i can get sometime in the game, i've just defeated rosso in the shinra building and am about to fight azul again. im searching desperately for it but can't seem to find it! please help! xD

CriteriaEdit

		Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - 20:08, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
		I think it's appropriate to apply here the same criteria as in Template:Armor.

		Xenomic TALK - 08:14, June 26, 2011 (UTC)
		Hurray for bringing this back up! So it's safe to say that if it appears at least 4 times, in different games that isn't a subgame of itself (i.e. FFVII, FFT, etc.), then the articles can be made for them correct? If so, then I may have something to do yet again~

Vigil WeaponsEdit

		Xenomic TALK - 06:47, October 10, 2011 (UTC)
		Now, I'm no expert with FFXI, but are these notable enough to have their own articles (and curious if they even have their own images like the Mythic Weapons and whatnot from FFXI)?

FFD Edit

		Xenomic TALK - 08:48, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
		Leaving a note here for those wondering why I'm not filling in FFD stuff is that I'm not doing so until names are finalized and all that (plus I'm just trying to make the pages so that they're made mostly, just saying.)

Flails? Edit

		Xenomic TALK - 05:30, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
		Should Flails have a parent page? Or is there not enough for them to have one by now?

		Catuse says at 05:31, June 28, 2012 (UTC) for great justice... "Never trust a man until you've run a mile in his shoes. Then you're a mile away from him and you've stolen his shoes."
		4 games is the magic number... dunno if Flails has enough though.

		Xenomic TALK - 05:33, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
		If all else fails, at least have like a Miscellaneous parent page for weapons that don't have enough for one, like say Needles or Forks. That's what I'm thinking.

		Xenomic TALK - 05:37, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
		Nevermind, seem they're grouped with Maces for some reason. Meh...I still stand by the Miscellaneous article!

EC

For weapon types I would say two appearances. I mean, if it appears twice then there is something to say about the weapon type-- similarities can be drawn. In addition to this, it gives a place to write an entry. For single-appearance weapon-types, well they can redirect to the appropriate List of Weapons page.

I'm sure other people would disagree with me. JBed 05:52, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

SplittingEdit

With over 100 alphabetically-sorted entries, this template decidedly needs to have its Recurring Weapons area split in order to facilitate and simplify navigation. For that purpose, I have a couple of suggestions:

• Since "Specific and Recurring Sets" is common between Template:Weapons and Template:Armor (and Template:Accessories, to an extent), we could create a new generic "Equipment" template, covering the three subtypes generally and use the three templates for individual equipment pieces.
• We could split the "Recurring Weapons" section into weapon types. Obviously not the 35 weapon types listed on the section, but split the section with inspiration from the main three weapon categories from Final Fantasy Tactics A2. Since Tactics A2 has 25 weapon types (70% of our total), I doubt there is difficulty in adapting our list to it.

The Armor and Accessories templates don't need this change as much, but in particular, the Armor template could use this too. Feedback and more suggestions are very welcome. - Henryacores^ 16:44, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 21:11, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
		Hmmmmm yes...something does need to be done, especially since there's only going to be more to be added to this. The problem though of splitting into specific "categories" is that not always is a weapon THAT specific one type. We could put them into a category based on what they MOST appeared as, but that's that... Explain what you mean by generic "Equipment" template? If it's putting all the different types of equipment on it (i.e. all Weapons types, Armor types, etc.), then I'm all for that. Of course, that's one new template to put on a lot of pages (maybe?), but it's easier for viewers to go from one section to another without having to rely solely on the Weapons, Armor, and Accessories template. Though more detail is needed on what you're talking about with that first. But yes, again I do agree something needs done...deciding what, that's gonna be a chore...

The problem though of splitting into specific "categories" is that not always is a weapon THAT specific one type.

Solution: Use its most notable type and if none can be picked, create a fourth "Miscellaneous" category.

Explain what you mean by generic "Equipment" template? If it's putting all the different types of equipment on it (i.e. all Weapons types, Armor types, etc.), then I'm all for that. Of course, that's one new template to put on a lot of pages (maybe?)

There are 35 weapon type pages. I predict that this template would be placed in around 50 pages, not counting the set pages. Since all pieces of equipment are linked to on weapon lists by game and type, they would not need this template. Singular equipment pages would only use their respective equipment type template. - Henryacores^ 21:42, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 21:47, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
		Hmm...I guess the only real thing to do then is to make a test version of it and see how it turns out. *Shrugs* EDIT - Would you rather me wait before making more articles until this is decided or what??

This ~is still on the making and shouldn't stall article creation. - Henryacores^ 21:59, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 22:03, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
		Mmkay. Only reason I asked is because there's going to be more added to this particular template (I need to get to Grand Slam and finish that since I left it last night...).

		Xenomic TALK - 22:58, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
		On topic of article creation for equipment, here's one for ya: What do we do with things such as Spear? We have Greatsword for instance that covers both the weapon class and specific weapon (well, moreso the specific weapon than the class it seems), and so does Spear. However, the SPECIFIC weapon tends to appear on its own enough that they probably can warrant their own page (sure, we could HAVE the info for them on the recurring weapon type page, but that's for the weapon TYPE, not the specific WEAPON). Perhaps something akin to how Great Bow (Weapon) is dealt with in this regards would be suitable? I don't know, just trying to give stuff their own article that probably should have them. Spear, Axe, Boomerang, Bow, Dagger, and so on and so forth have enough on their own to warrant their own pages without junking up the weapon type page (and some like Boomerang, which is in both the Weapon Type and Recurring Weapon, don't even go into detail OF one or the other anyways. Boomerang for instance doesn't even TALK about the TYPE so much as the recurring weapon...).

When I created Greatsword the idea was that it is a page for Greatswords. Sometimes the Greatsword is a class of weapons, sometimes there is a weapon named Greatsword that is in the Greatsword class (and thus should be mentioned anyway) and sometimes the Greatsword is a weapon but the game it is in has no class however we can tell by the name of the weapon it is still a Greatsword even if the game doesn't have a specific group for them like other games may.

The Greatsword page lists Greatswords. And sometimes there's no class but we know games contain Greatswords when there isn't a class because there is a weapon specifically named Greatsword.

That said, I don't mind a split, however I don't see a real reason why we should have to since "Greatsword" is just a generic name that is always a type of Greatsword (even if the game does not give a class to them). 79.69.192.208 14:20, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 19:55, September 5, 2012 (UTC)
		Well, it was just a generic example. It's more like how I made Great Bow (Weapon) when Great Bow itself is a category of weapons (granted, in 2 games but nonetheless). It's more of a thing to make one article focus solely on the thing it should (Greatsword right now would focus on the CATEGORY of weapons, and would make it much more cleaner to go through, while Greatsword (Weapon) would be dedicated to JUST the weapon itself, again to keep it cleaner and more organized.)

		Xenomic TALK - 04:34, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
		So Henry, still going to do this?? If so, then perhaps I can work up a template in my Sandbox (if you don't do it first or something) and see how that goes. As for splitting articles from one another from parent articles, from what I'm seeing, that would include splitting the weapons Bow, Katana, Greatsword, Axe, Dagger, Hammer (?), Rod, Staff, Spear, Boomerang, Shuriken, Whip, and Rapier from the parent articles and renaming the parent articles to something probably so that there's a disambig for the specific weapon and the category of weapons. Is this something we would want to do???

		Xenomic TALK - 22:52, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
		Another bump for great measures, since nobody seems to want to decide on this one way or another .=.

		Drake Clawfang - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 04:30, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		Bump, and agreed on splitting the template into weapon types. If a weapon isn't always the same type, why not list it on both templates? I doubt any weapon has been classified as any more than three types, three templates isn't a problem. Come vote in the Soul Shrine and take one of my Final Fantasy quizzes.

		Xenomic TALK - 04:44, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		User:Xenomic/Sandbox2. I worked on this a while back, though Henry didn't approve of it. Still...probably a start to SOMETHING I suppose...

		Drake Clawfang - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - Doreiku Kuroofangu 04:49, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		Allow me to rephrase since I misunderstood - why not have separate templates for each weapon type? EDIT - an idea comes to mind from Wikipedia, their Final Fantasy template there is coded to only show links in it relevant to whichever FF article you're viewing, like FF4 it shows CC and DS, FF6 it shows the character article and Kefka's article. We could adapt that to this, the "Recurring Weapons" section is divided up into the types as you have, but when viewing say, a katana-type's page, only the katana section shows up on the template Come vote in the Soul Shrine and take one of my Final Fantasy quizzes.

		Xenomic TALK - 04:57, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		Hmm...an experimentation would be in need with that. Can we even do that here?? Probably so, but I'm not sure how myself.

		Drake Clawfang - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 05:00, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		I'll give it a shot EDIT - Scratch that, I don't know this coding myself, but I know we have it, it's switch coding, if someone know how to use it we can do the same stuff here easily. Come vote in the Soul Shrine and take one of my Final Fantasy quizzes.

		Xenomic TALK - 05:12, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		If anyone might know that, JBed might so probably should ask him bout it sometime.

Done in the Sandbox, and I don't know how old it is so there could be stuff to update.

So I did the "X[3]-character" trick. This means:

{{User:Xenomic/Sandbox2|Sword}}
{{User:Xenomic/Sandbox2|Swords}}
{{User:Xenomic/Sandbox2|swo}}

All the above return the same result. It's to avoid people using different plurals. Also typing "fists", "knuckles", "claws", or "fist/knuckles/claws" will output the same result.

I was going to put Miscellaneous weapons on a default, but then I thought that a page like Weapon (Equipment) won't need it. Instead "miscellaneous", "mis", or "else" will work.

I used includeonly so you can see all the rows on the page. This is so by viewing the template page you can find things without having to go into the edit form. 79.69.200.233 09:22, January 22, 2013 (UTC)

		Drake Clawfang - Crossing the distant night...Wandering the desert sea...The gods' voices are mirages... TALK - 16:47, January 22, 2013 (UTC)
		Awesome, thanks. So, do we approve of this idea? EDIT - to make it clear what it does, here - first usage of the template only shows spears, second only swords, the third only axes. Come vote in the Soul Shrine and take one of my Final Fantasy quizzes.

I think that if we are going to filter the template by weapon type the Specific Weapon section should bite the dust. It's definitely the black sheep of the prototype: first, it makes no sense to list random weapons from all shapes and types on a template that lists only weapons of a single type; second, if one of those specific weapon articles really respected the criteria for weapon article creation, they'd be on the big weapon list, and as far as I know, equipment sets belong on the "Game-specific and recurring sets", because that's how the section is named. In any case, going back to the game-specific and plot-relevant weapons and all that business, those game-specific weapons only have pages because they are plot-relevant, and this is not a plot-focused template, its an item/equipment/gameplay-focused template.

At very least destroy that abomination and filter the game-specific weapons by type as well. If we're not going to mix shivs and sords, we don't need Cerberus and Buster Sword joining hands.

Finally, I think we should filter the weapon types more generically so as not to reduce the template to a minimal share of its total size. Using this sorts of gameplay-related navigation template as the tip of an iceberg is only counter-productive. There are several arbitrary ways of categorizing, and by consequence filtering, weapon types (weapon types, not weapons, this is important), which can significantly reduce the size of that hundred-sized list of links without shortening it to a dozen or two. Here are two obvious and easy ones:

• Melee, magical and ranged, though the first would probably be half as big as the original template;
• Final Fantasy TA2's (this game has the largest variety of weapon types of the entire series) Edged, Bludgeoning and Ranged.
  • These three types are further divided into Bladed and Piercing (Edged); Bludgeoning and Scholarly (Bludgeoning) and Ranged (which isn't divided due to being much smaller than the other two, featuring only Bows, Greatbows, Guns, Hand-Cannons and Cards).

These are all my cents. - Henryacores^ 18:07, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

Three types sounds good. Perhaps, "bladed", "ranged" and "mage" would work? Doreiku Kuroofangu 21:59, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

Melee. Poles and Hammers aren't necessarily bladed, and are normally used for physical fighting.

Although I have an obvious preference for an official categorization. Alternatives are very welcome. - Henryacores^ 22:22, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

True. Someone want to sandbox this organization so we can look at how it would go and see if there's adjustments to be done? Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:23, January 23, 2013 (UTC)

Edged, Blunt, Ranged prototype: Final Fantasy Wiki:Sandsea/Weapons Template. - Henryacores^ 21:37, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

I believe Whips and Instruments are usually long-range, but looks good otherwise. Doreiku Kuroofangu 21:40, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 21:41, January 24, 2013 (UTC)
		They usually are (well, Instruments are anyways. Dunno bout whips but maybe they are?). It does look a lot better now.

Given that a weapon's range and weapon type aren't universally correlated, I don't think that's an adequate guideline for this template. Instruments are not long-range in FFVII, FFIX, TA and TA2. Whips are not long-range in VIII. Barret's Gun-arms are not universally long-range, and Red XIII has a long-range hairpin. Poles and Books (books.) exceptionally have a range of two in Tactics. Spears always have a range of two in the aforementioned sub-series.

Three games offer range-related abilities and are the ones that most extensively make use of this gimmick, i.e., the games where long range matters the most feature abilities where all attacks can be long ranged, and the weapon types that are universally ranged weapons throughout the entirety of the series, with the exception of Rackets, Cards and Dice, are already on the Ranged weapon section. In fact, Instruments and Whips are fittingly on the section dominated by magical-class weapons. - Henryacores^ 22:50, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Also, when long-range, the Flail is a Staff. - Henryacores^ 22:55, January 24, 2013 (UTC)

Adding Ultimate Weapons Edit

So we have Ultimate Weapons to the Weapons category, why not fit it into the category template?

Mask no Oni (talk) 04:26, October 7, 2012 (UTC)

Because the article in question is currently a total mess and should be cleaned up so we can actually determine what to put on the template, and because ultimate weapons for each weapon type vary greatly from game to game and from version to version, and this is a series-wide template. - Henryacores^ 23:31, November 26, 2012 (UTC)

RedesignEdit

What is the veredict over the revamp of this template? This is beggining to fall into limbo.

See the two big sections right above this for more info. I'm really not going to bother to link to them when they're this close. - Henryacores^ 19:17, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

I vote your method of splitting the template into melee, blunt and ranged, with the coding in Xeno's sandbox for each section to only appear when viewing a page listed under that section (ie, viewing Masamune, only the melee weapon listing appears, etc). Doreiku Kuroofangu 19:19, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

The capabilities of the template are well described on the sandbox's respective talk page. That is one of them. - Henryacores^ 19:22, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Melee/Blunt/Ranged works for me. (Cat + meow)(RC + Sbox) = FFW 19:25, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 19:31, January 27, 2013 (UTC)
		I say go for it with the design you got now. It's a lot cleaner and easier to navigate than this thing.

The layout present in Xenomic's Sanbox2 is great although I'd somehow indicate the ultimate weapons.—Kaimi (999,999 CP/5 TP) 19:42, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

		Xenomic TALK - 20:09, January 27, 2013 (UTC)
		The problem with indicating ultimate weapons is it's usually subjective per game no? Though if we do indicate which is which, we can simply opt to bold the ones that are considered the ultimate weapons.

Being an ultimate weapon is not sufficient rationale for a page, and therefore this in itself seems to makes it worthwhile. And even the ones that do have pages.... they probably have them for being recurring. And they aren't always ultimate weapons in each appearance. JBed (talk) 20:25, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Ultimate Weapon distinction and coverage and blah blah blah, whatever.Edit

There's this ongoing issue about how ultimate weapons are important and absent from this template, even when they're SO important, which they are, and in the eyes of players of the majority of the installments of the series, not only are they important, but obvious when we look at the weapons available to each character or weapon type in a game.

I believe it's mostly consensual that the dedicated page to this definition is a gigantic mess. Objectively it is hard to navigate because it redundantly extensively describes an incomplete list of "ultimate" weapons which are already described elsewhere, either on the games' weapon lists, or at their dedicated pages, which most have because they're recurring, and the ones which don't have them should, because even if they're not necessarily plot-important, they are undeniably extensively sought by the audience of this website. And this is why this is being posted on this talk page, rather than here. - Henryacores^ 20:41, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

The page has some merit in listing the strongest weapons in the game, but as it is, yes it's incomprehensible. Stripping it down to a bare "list" would be best, if it's to stay. Doreiku Kuroofangu 20:43, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

This isn't about the page. It's about the template. - Henryacores^ 20:45, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

The template can link to the page under Weapons Sets, or under the List of Weapons section as a sort of sub-heading, like the FF4 template has with FF4CC. Doreiku Kuroofangu 20:49, January 27, 2013 (UTC)

Bad Categorisation Edit

Why are individual named weapons being thrown into the Weapon Lists category when they have no weapon lists? Netherith (talk) 08:49, January 28, 2013 (UTC)

Separate Specific Weapons Edit

I didn't notice this section had been done away with, and I think it should come back. Iconic recurring weapons like the Buster Sword and Revolver are lost in the template as it exists now and bear a higher importance that sets them apart. Doreiku Kuroofangu 04:37, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Agree. 79.69.204.77 13:04, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I was gonna wait for more opinions, then I noticed the Fusion Swords were listed as a Greatsword and the Dual Hound as a Knuckle - Advent Children didn't assign them such classifications and so neither should we. I named the section "Character weapons" with a focus only on the recurring iconic weapon(s) of a recurring character (I'm still very willing to discuss though, what should and should not be there as the section exists now). The exception I made was the Ultima Weapon, partially because it is almost universally the strongest weapon in the game and so deserves distinction, but also because it cannot be classified only as a Sword, it's also been a Gunblade, Thief Blade, and Greatsword, and has appearances like Dissidia and FF8 where it has no classification at all, it's just the weapon itself. Doreiku Kuroofangu 13:57, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Disagree. This is a template regarding gameplay, not unlike Abilities, Jobs or Armor, and it should be focused on gameplay. We should not glorify weapons based on plot notability, and we should prioritize its functionality regarding recurring equipment. There are several game-based navigation templates for iconic plot weapons, which already link to several plot-related concepts.

And the Ultima Weapon is almost always a sword, exceptions being FFXIII, FFIX and VII (Zidane's Thief Swords and Cloud's broadswords were categorized as Swords by Xenomic and they remained as such), and Dirge of Cerberus. But if you did your research, you'd find that the Organix\Ogre Nix\Organyx is a gunblade\thief sword\sword\greatsword without half the consistency of the Ultima Weapon, and that the Apocalypse is a gunblade\greatsword\sword\scythe as well. - Henryacores^ 18:18, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

"We should not glorify weapons based on plot notability" - that's what so many of the weapons listed in the section are about, they are not notable in any way except that they get used by a main character frequently. The Cerberus only has two appearances, only one of which is in a gameplay fashion, if we treat it like a normal weapon it should not even have a page, but it's Vincent's iconic weapon so it does. The Anastasia, Velvet Nightmare, Souba, Dual Hound, Fusion Swords, Magun, etc, have only one appearance each, and all of them but the Anastasia are not even in games. So how they can be listed on the page at all when they have no relevance from a gameplay perspective? Doreiku Kuroofangu 18:23, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

The Fusion Swords actually make an appearance in the Dissidia titles. In any case, if they are not notable in a gameplay aspect, then maybe they shouldn't be on a navigation template where around 90% of the links are so in the first place.

This wiki likes to believe that notability is measured by appearances alone. This is absolutely false. For example, "Ultimate weapons" are far more notable than early and mid-game weapons, not only because they're what everyone but self-challenging masochists wants, their acquirement, or in some cases, empowerment, is prone to involve particular sidequests, which can even be missed in a playthrough, and these are not covered in weapon lists. - Henryacores^ 18:35, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

"This wiki likes to believe that notability is measured by appearances alone. This is absolutely false." - I agree, honestly. A lot of those specific weapons don't have enough appearances for pages as I've said, but I think they should have them because they are notable and iconic weapons which gives them higher importance for some like the Wind Spear or Murakumo. So if we agree they're more important, why would we not treat them that way on a template that lists notable weapons? Doreiku Kuroofangu 18:39, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Having a page is not the same as having a link. The weapons are notable. Just not in the same way as the others, and belong to a different place since they're meant to be viewed in a different way than as equipment. - Henryacores^ 18:51, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Do we want a separate template then to list weapons known for being iconic then? Could work, would also give us room to list some of the examples noted in that forum page like the Mage Mashers and Lion Heart, if we wanted to include them. Doreiku Kuroofangu 18:59, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

I believe a category is more than enough. They should also be at game templates.

The Mage Masher is not plot-important. It's not even Zidane's "iconic weapon". It's the Dagger which Garnet takes her name from. - Henryacores^ 19:02, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Dissidia, Theatrhythm and Airborne Brigade would like to dispute that. Doreiku Kuroofangu 19:05, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Generic level 22 dagger; FFXII and FFXII.

Why isn't The Ogre Zidane's "character weapon" as well? - Henryacores^ 19:14, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Because he only combines the Mashers into the Ogre in Dissidia, in the other games he wields them separately. Doreiku Kuroofangu 19:16, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Uh uh. And what about the Orichalcon he always uses alongside a given dagger, and was even alluded to in XII? - Henryacores^ 19:21, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Fair point. Doreiku Kuroofangu 19:25, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Henry, is what you are saying here "these weapons should not be linked to on this template"? If so, then I disagree. They are weapons, and while they may not be relevant to a viewer only looking for gameplay information, someone browsing the Wiki looking for weapons of the series may come here to look at the weapons we have pages on. Not just the gameplay-relevant ones, the plot-relevant ones or the iconic ones or the notable ones. Since it's relevant, we should have it here. The template says "Weapons", not "gameplay weapons". Jimcloud 22:40, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Weapons are just things people use to hit targets with. Separating story-weapons from gameplay-weapons as two very different things seems unnecessary... because they're still weapons, and it's not that hard to think of someone who wants to navigate from one gameplay-only weapon to a story-only weapon. Because as soon as Kadaj is a playable character in a game, the Souba gets on the weapons template, even though it's still the same thing as it was before. I was going to make a comment about Rune Knight not being a classic job, but that page has since had two actual jobs added. 79.69.204.77 19:09, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

This is not story-weapons versus gameplay-weapons. It's equipment versus not equipment.

You don't see Accessories listing Cloud's lupine brooch, Squall's Griever ring, or Edea's contraption cape. - Henryacores^ 19:21, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Fenrir (Final Fantasy VII) and Griever, they aren't on the accessories template because they serve as symbolism beyond their accessory appearances. Doreiku Kuroofangu 19:25, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

But aren't they accessories as well? Don't the Cerberus and Buster Sword share that symbolism? The Griever is a Ring (Equipment).

Oh, but it's not equipment. My bad. - Henryacores^ 19:34, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Here's the difference: We have a "Character Weapons" template but not a "Character Accessories" template. Gameplay accessories are easily separated from other kinds of accessories. Especially considering that accessories (and also armour) are not usually visible.

There is an obvious separation between gameplay weapons and story weapons: one can never be equipped. But non-gameplay weapons are still called weapons and people still link them with other weapons on the series. Possibly because gameplay weapons are still visible, and perhaps more likely because both gameplay and story weapons serve the same purpose, while what you call an "accessory" is used for accessorising, while it grants additional abilities in gameplay.

Besides, accessories are usually a part of a character's design, while we actually would make weapons for just being weapons. 79.69.204.77 21:07, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Note: Shields are always visible too. - Henryacores^ 21:34, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Okay. So if a shield were to appear in a film(or not-in-battle in a game) and it had a name then I would expect it to have an article. And then do we put it on the Armor template? Well since it is not as common of an occurrence as Weapons maybe we might not...? I would though.

If such a thing were to happen, in the wiki's current setup, I would opt to move the Character Weapons article to a Character Equipment article. 79.69.204.77 21:53, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

This is very wise. - Henryacores^ 22:10, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

There could be merit in this, but aside from Fenrir and Griever, there is no armor or accessory that's really iconic enough to be noted. Maybe Minwu's shield, but not really since it's treated as Firion's now. I guess Aerith's hair ribbon could count, but that seems silly to give its own article to. Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:34, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

Accessories don't count unless they fall under the FF definition. If someone puts on a cape and they get magic powers then we have reason to call that an accessory. If something is for accessorising then it would not. The purpose of weapon is attack, and armor is defense, and the purpose of accessories are special effects. Hence why any accessory can't just be considered a non-gameplay "accessory".

Anyway, it's conditional. If we have another article that covers non-gameplay equipment, then would be the time to move it. 79.69.204.77 22:52, January 29, 2013 (UTC)