Talk:Venat
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Mentioning what game this character appears in and categorization is fun. But that's just me. --Auron Kaizer 18:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I was just adding in a word or two and changing the hes to shes. If you want, I'll completely overhaul it. --Diablocon 18:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sure. Because of non-functioning corporate planning, I'm not getting the game until March, so I won't be much help for this :P --Auron Kaizer 18:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- Just finished adding in titles and some more info. Also changed the section on The Undying to not refer to the actual battle. However, the article is still a little bit bland without pictures. --Diablocon 18:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Venat's Gender
In the Japanese version of the game, the Occuria are all referred to using masculine pronouns. So I think that all instances of she should be replaced with he.PiccoloNamek 18:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Are we covering the Japanese version of the game or the North American version? --Crazyswordsman 19:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is, in the American version, they aren't referred to using any pronouns at all, leaving the question of their true genders unanswered. Therefore, we have to look to the Japanese version for answers.PiccoloNamek 19:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Or just refer to them by the neuter pronoun 'it' StijnX 19:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Where did the female thing come from anyway? --Auron Kaizer 20:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Probably the voice, I'm guessing StijnX 20:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if nobody specified the gender of Seymour, I would have thought that Seymour was female too. --Auron Kaizer 20:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Replace "Seymour" with "Larsa" and you have something even more accurate. --Crazyswordsman 20:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, Larsa is only a boy so you can't expect his voice to have broken yet, and Seymour had a harser timbre to his voice than most females StijnX 21:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well he LOOKS like a girl. --Crazyswordsman 21:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- I used "she" because in both languages Venat is voiced by a woman, and in Japan, Venat's name is Venus, which made me think it was a woman even more so. However, using "it" may be more appropriate. Diablocon 15:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm going for non-gender as a fact the Occuria could be compared to Angels as being a race that has no need for gender as they are immortal and otherworldy. 65.35.34.4 03:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I used "she" because in both languages Venat is voiced by a woman, and in Japan, Venat's name is Venus, which made me think it was a woman even more so. However, using "it" may be more appropriate. Diablocon 15:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well he LOOKS like a girl. --Crazyswordsman 21:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, Larsa is only a boy so you can't expect his voice to have broken yet, and Seymour had a harser timbre to his voice than most females StijnX 21:01, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Replace "Seymour" with "Larsa" and you have something even more accurate. --Crazyswordsman 20:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if nobody specified the gender of Seymour, I would have thought that Seymour was female too. --Auron Kaizer 20:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Probably the voice, I'm guessing StijnX 20:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Where did the female thing come from anyway? --Auron Kaizer 20:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Or just refer to them by the neuter pronoun 'it' StijnX 19:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is, in the American version, they aren't referred to using any pronouns at all, leaving the question of their true genders unanswered. Therefore, we have to look to the Japanese version for answers.PiccoloNamek 19:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- This discussion may be a bit old, but nonetheless I find the conclusion here to be quite illogical. While it is true that the North American localizations are favored over the Japanese versions here, the failure of the localization team to put any pronouns in the game that would hint at Venat's gender forces us to look to the Japanese version for info. Now, seeing as how the Japanese version uses male pronouns for Venat, I think this is reason enough for us to classify Venat as male. Quite honestly, I think that's really all the proof we need, I mean it's not like we're changing something said in the North American version of the game to what was said in the Japanese version, rather we are using info provided to us in the Japanese version that was not provided in the North American version. And quite frankly, I really don't see why this would be a problem, I mean we use information Ultimania guides all the time, and they're only published in Japanese. So really, there is no reason to suggest that Venat isn't male, Hell that entire "genderless" thing is nothing more than speculation with not a single ounce of evidence from the game to support it. And as for the gender of Venat's voice actors, I really don't think this should be considered a factor, female voice actors often play male characters, granted, women in these rules are usually portraying young boys or effeminate men. But in the case of the Occuria, it would seem that it was intended that they all have have higher-sounding voices, as seen in the part of the game where Ashe meets with the other Occuria. So with that being said, I'm going to change some of the info article to reflect the nature of Venat's real gender. –Nahald 20:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what qualifies you to make that decision, after all the whole reason for the discution in the first place was to make sure that the change was unanimusly agreed on. So you barging in and changing that dicision because you feel like it is rather counter productive. FinalFighterA+ 21:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- Venat and all the Occurias' gender is ambiguous enough to warrant an "it". English trumps Japanese when English is available, which is why Edward is not Gilbart. As for the Japanese pronouns: do they work like Spanish pronouns, where every object is assigned a gender? 8bit 21:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- EDIT: Isn't the absence of gender-specific pronouns in the English version supporting evidence for the Occuria's genderless identity? There is ample oppurtunity in the game's script to refer to an Occurian as he or she, yet no one opts to do so. 8bit 21:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- I only made the changes because that seems to have been what happened with this article in the fist place. If you read the discussion, it pretty much just goes from one thing to another until one guy makes a statement saying how he think it should be, with very little basis for this argument. From here it seems that these changes were made and the subject was just neglected. But as for the lack of gender-specific pronouns in FFXII: Perhaps the localization team just didn't see any opportunity to do so. Now as to why this is, you have to understand that in the Japanese language, pronouns are used in ways different from how they are used in English, so it was more essential in that particular version. In any case, the localization did not seem to make any attempt to show that the Occuria are, in fact, genderless, so that view is 100% speculation. If no pronouns are available in the English localization of a game, then it is logical to look at what is used in the Japanese version of the game rather than just making crap up. I mean, if you wanna discredit everything that is mentioned in Japanese publications but not English, then would mean we would need to discredit all information obtained from the Japanese-only Ultimania guides. Speaking of which, might I suggest that we look into whether or not Venat has an entry in the Ultimania guide for FFXII that will settle this issue? –Nahald 22:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are speculating that the lack of gender-specific pronouns in reference to the Occuria is due to laziness on the English localization team, who allegedly did not bother to reference a gender that you believe exists, when there exists the possibility that they excluded gender pronouns simply to exclude gender altogether. I'd like to ask this question again, though, because it may give either you or the existing opinion more credence: Are Japanese pronouns restricted only to gender, as in everything must be referenced as masculine or feminine, as with the Spanish el/la, un/una? And also, is there a Japanese word for "it"? I would love to see Venat's Ultimania page, if you could link to it. 8bit 22:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'll try to see if I can find a translated version of it. And as for Japanese pronouns, well you see, one of the useful things about the language is that they have non-gender-specific pronouns to describe a person in an unoffensive way. This makes things a bit easier to talk about a person whose gender you are unsure of in Japanese than it is in English, where calling a person "it" would usually be considered highly offensive. In fact, the only non-offensive non-gender-specific pronouns that we have in English are "they" and "them," but even those can only be used in certain contexts. And trust me, I know the difficulties of writing about a person whose gender you must be vague about. I recently added some entries to the Final Fantasy VII timeline article chronicling the events of Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII, a game where you can play as a character who has a name and gender of the player's choosing. So yeah, it's been REAL fun having to mess around with how I word each sentence properly without using like, any pronouns whatsoever to describe the game's protagonist… <_< Well, anyways, gonna go see if I can find an entry on Venat in a translation of FFXII's Ultimania guide. –Nahald 12:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Grrr… Can't find any translations or scans of the book on the at all. Well, in any case, I still think that assuming Venat is "genderless" is taking HUGE liberties on our part. So far, the only argument that has been presented is: "Well, the English version doesn't use any gender-specific pronouns to describe Venat, so then Venat MUST be genderless then!" This argument really doesn't hold together at all. Also, I would like to add that I never said that the lack of pronouns in FFXII was due to the localization team being "lazy," I said that it was because they didn't see any opportunity to do so. If you look at the dialogue in FFXII relating to Venats, you will find that he is rarely ever spoken of without being present himself, meaning that nearly all dialogue in which he is spoken of takes place in the second-person. Now quite honestly, it is quite odd that the main characters talk about him so rarely. In fact, looking through the game script, only two of the game's main character's even say Venat's name: Balthier and Ashe. Well, anyway, the game ultimately leaves very little room for any third-person pronouns to be used in refernce to Venats, and in English, the only gender-specific pronouns that we have are third-person singular pronouns. So to sum it up, the reason why no gender-specific pronouns are not used when referring to Venat in the English version of FFXII is because there are like, only a few scenes of dialogue in the game referred to Venat in third person, and in those instances, use of any pronouns was not necessary. To prove my point, here are all of the dialogue exchanges in FFXII that speak of Venat in the third person:
Balthier: He was obsessed with Nethicite. It was all he cared about. He’d babble nonsense, blind to aught but the Stone’s power. He’d talk about some ‘Eynah,’ or was it ‘Venat’? No matter. Everything he did, he did to get closer to the Nethicite, to understand it. He made airships, weapons… He even made me a Judge.
Cid: Venat, you shouldn’t have.
Balthier: This creature… So this is your Venat?
Fran: Do not worry. I will behave myself. The Mist here is cooled. I sense something like the shadow here.
Balthier: Venat. It appears Cid has yet to arrive. We'll lie in wait for him here.
Occuria: Now take this sword, this Treaty-Blade. Occurian seal, mark of your worth. Cut deep the Cryst and seize your Shards. Wield Dynast-King's power! Destroy Venat!
Ashe: But Venat—Venat is an Occurian. A being like you.
Occurian: Venat is a heretic!
Balthier: So… He was talking to Venat all along. He wasn't mad at all then, was he.
Cid: What's that, Venat? Ah, taken the bait already, have they? Splendid. The Occuria have given the Princess her Treaty-Blade.
Balthier: You were only a tool of this Venat.
Cid: How quaint. We are allies! The Occuria give men power as a master feeds his dog: it is meant to tame us. How well have you resisted their wile. By turning your back on their stones, you give us free hand to write out own history.
Out of all of those quotes, the only one in which a third-person pronoun could be used in such a way that the player would know who the character is referring to is the line "Venat is a heretic," which could also have been translated as "he is a heretic," although I don't think that would have quite as much of a dramatic effect. So, if you needed a reason for why no gender-specific pronouns are used for Venats, then there's your answer. I'd say that pretty much dispels that "genderless" theory, the localization team obviously didn't intentionally avoid putting in gender-specific pronouns, they just couldn't find a good opportunity to do so. So, with that in mind, I say we identify Venat's gender according to the gender-specific pronouns used for him in the Japanese version of the game and say he's male. At this point, saying anything otherwise is nothing but speculation. –Nahald 19:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)- And here I am being all crazy and thinking of Venat as a "she" because she speaks in a feminine voice. --BlueHighwind ツ 19:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- You shouldn't use a voice actors gender to determine a character's gender, a lot of women play male voice over rolls. Now true, most of male rolls that female voice actresses play are that of young boys (e.g. Nancy "$cilon" Cartwright as Bart Simpson), but there are a few exceptions. Only ones I can think of right now are Goku from the Japanese version of DBZ and Frieza from the English dub. I'm pretty sure this was done for Venat to give him an other-worldly sound without making him sound demonic, as most male voices usually sound when they are distorted. –Nahald 19:12, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- And here I am being all crazy and thinking of Venat as a "she" because she speaks in a feminine voice. --BlueHighwind ツ 19:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Grrr… Can't find any translations or scans of the book on the at all. Well, in any case, I still think that assuming Venat is "genderless" is taking HUGE liberties on our part. So far, the only argument that has been presented is: "Well, the English version doesn't use any gender-specific pronouns to describe Venat, so then Venat MUST be genderless then!" This argument really doesn't hold together at all. Also, I would like to add that I never said that the lack of pronouns in FFXII was due to the localization team being "lazy," I said that it was because they didn't see any opportunity to do so. If you look at the dialogue in FFXII relating to Venats, you will find that he is rarely ever spoken of without being present himself, meaning that nearly all dialogue in which he is spoken of takes place in the second-person. Now quite honestly, it is quite odd that the main characters talk about him so rarely. In fact, looking through the game script, only two of the game's main character's even say Venat's name: Balthier and Ashe. Well, anyway, the game ultimately leaves very little room for any third-person pronouns to be used in refernce to Venats, and in English, the only gender-specific pronouns that we have are third-person singular pronouns. So to sum it up, the reason why no gender-specific pronouns are not used when referring to Venat in the English version of FFXII is because there are like, only a few scenes of dialogue in the game referred to Venat in third person, and in those instances, use of any pronouns was not necessary. To prove my point, here are all of the dialogue exchanges in FFXII that speak of Venat in the third person:
- I'll try to see if I can find a translated version of it. And as for Japanese pronouns, well you see, one of the useful things about the language is that they have non-gender-specific pronouns to describe a person in an unoffensive way. This makes things a bit easier to talk about a person whose gender you are unsure of in Japanese than it is in English, where calling a person "it" would usually be considered highly offensive. In fact, the only non-offensive non-gender-specific pronouns that we have in English are "they" and "them," but even those can only be used in certain contexts. And trust me, I know the difficulties of writing about a person whose gender you must be vague about. I recently added some entries to the Final Fantasy VII timeline article chronicling the events of Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII, a game where you can play as a character who has a name and gender of the player's choosing. So yeah, it's been REAL fun having to mess around with how I word each sentence properly without using like, any pronouns whatsoever to describe the game's protagonist… <_< Well, anyways, gonna go see if I can find an entry on Venat in a translation of FFXII's Ultimania guide. –Nahald 12:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Vanet is genderless because the modern western interpretation of god does not use gender spacific terms. Allah is always called Allah or "The one god" in Islam; Jews refer to "I am what I am" (I forget the Hebrew term for it). Even in Christianity, the Trinity is over all, genderless. Ie: Father may be masculine, but the Holy Spirit (refered to as god's wisdom) would have probably been refered to as female. That is why the American translation is "it" rather than "he." So if Vanet is not "she" then Vanet is definitely "it."--Werefang 19:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Uh… Except the word "it" is not used to describe Venat in the English version of the game, that's just something that someone who edited this article did. And besdes, I really don't think the Occuria are "gods," they are just beings of great power. And even if they were gods, the Espers/Scions are considered to be god-like figures of sorts, and yet all of them have genders. But okay, let's just say for a moment that you are right and all Occuria are genderless, does that mean we should limit ourselves by referring to them all as "it?" Of course not! There are many genderless figures in mythology and religion who are referred to with male pronouns. Now as for the Final Fantasy series, I would cite Galka as an example of a genderless race being identified as "male," but apparently, whether or not they're genderless is still a bit unclear in terms of what the developers say and what other official sources say. In any case, your view that Venat is genderless is still all speculation and I have yet to see anyone cite information from either the game or official sources to support this argument. –Nahald 20:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- "But okay, let's just say for a moment that you are right and all Occuria are genderless, does that mean we should limit ourselves by referring to them all as "it?" Of course not!" Except that is exactly what I am saying. Because neither "he" nor "she" are used, we can only use "it", both gender neutral as well as gender universal.--Werefang 20:30, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Uh… Except the word "it" is not used to describe Venat in the English version of the game, that's just something that someone who edited this article did. And besdes, I really don't think the Occuria are "gods," they are just beings of great power. And even if they were gods, the Espers/Scions are considered to be god-like figures of sorts, and yet all of them have genders. But okay, let's just say for a moment that you are right and all Occuria are genderless, does that mean we should limit ourselves by referring to them all as "it?" Of course not! There are many genderless figures in mythology and religion who are referred to with male pronouns. Now as for the Final Fantasy series, I would cite Galka as an example of a genderless race being identified as "male," but apparently, whether or not they're genderless is still a bit unclear in terms of what the developers say and what other official sources say. In any case, your view that Venat is genderless is still all speculation and I have yet to see anyone cite information from either the game or official sources to support this argument. –Nahald 20:13, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. Most monotheistic deities are genderless, and that can also be seen in politheism (Shiva). I personally think all the Occuria are genderless. - Henryacores^ 19:56, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
- The Occuria are gods. From Esper (Final Fantasy XII): In vainglory they arose, shouting challenges at the Gods. But prevail they did not. Their doom it was to walk the Mist until time’s end. A legend of the Nu Mou. Look at the Occuria physically, and there is nothing to suggest either gender. You also say that "no one has cited information from either the game or official sources to support this argument," yet, consider that referring to the Occuria as "it" in the English version would be offensive and there is no other way to refer to sigular members of an omnipotent race without resorting to calling them by the attributed name every time. (I see your point about how hard it is to avoid specific genders ^^) 8bit 02:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- You are speculating that the lack of gender-specific pronouns in reference to the Occuria is due to laziness on the English localization team, who allegedly did not bother to reference a gender that you believe exists, when there exists the possibility that they excluded gender pronouns simply to exclude gender altogether. I'd like to ask this question again, though, because it may give either you or the existing opinion more credence: Are Japanese pronouns restricted only to gender, as in everything must be referenced as masculine or feminine, as with the Spanish el/la, un/una? And also, is there a Japanese word for "it"? I would love to see Venat's Ultimania page, if you could link to it. 8bit 22:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- I only made the changes because that seems to have been what happened with this article in the fist place. If you read the discussion, it pretty much just goes from one thing to another until one guy makes a statement saying how he think it should be, with very little basis for this argument. From here it seems that these changes were made and the subject was just neglected. But as for the lack of gender-specific pronouns in FFXII: Perhaps the localization team just didn't see any opportunity to do so. Now as to why this is, you have to understand that in the Japanese language, pronouns are used in ways different from how they are used in English, so it was more essential in that particular version. In any case, the localization did not seem to make any attempt to show that the Occuria are, in fact, genderless, so that view is 100% speculation. If no pronouns are available in the English localization of a game, then it is logical to look at what is used in the Japanese version of the game rather than just making crap up. I mean, if you wanna discredit everything that is mentioned in Japanese publications but not English, then would mean we would need to discredit all information obtained from the Japanese-only Ultimania guides. Speaking of which, might I suggest that we look into whether or not Venat has an entry in the Ultimania guide for FFXII that will settle this issue? –Nahald 22:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what qualifies you to make that decision, after all the whole reason for the discution in the first place was to make sure that the change was unanimusly agreed on. So you barging in and changing that dicision because you feel like it is rather counter productive. FinalFighterA+ 21:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Its a floating ball of mist with no defining gender characteristics, I say we go by whatever it is in original Japanese. Or refer to it has being genderless. Exdeath64 02:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- You just suggested either of the two relevant sides which we have already gone over and can't decide upon, Exdeath. Sigh.. something like this happened on Balthier's talk page, and it was solved by the Ultimania. The problem is we have no Bluerfn or other user to show us what is official, yet. Balthier's page in its current state uses the Japanese "mied", proven in the Ultimania, while "Mid" was utterly and completely absent in the English version at all.
- The core question is this: Does the absence of third-person pronouns in the English version imply gender neutrality, or does it render the English translation inferior to the Japanese version, which asserts masculine gender?
- This is a rather subjective question, and I think only the Ultimania can solve it, by referring to Venat as male or not as all. Until then, the general consensus, both from users of years past and current, seem to be for retaining gender-neutrality. 8bit 02:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- The lack of pronouns is a mark of divinity. In christianity, God is often refered to with "Him," "His," or "He;" not to be confused with "him," "his" and "he." With the capitals, it is used as a proper noun and cannot mean anything other than god, lower case is every other slob in the multiverse. Most western religions don't use pronouns at all, perhaps because it is seen as disrespectful(don't quote me on that, I'm no theologist). Also, I don't see how using the term "it" would be problematic. It is a fiction being and isn't really capable of being offended.--Werefang 12:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it would solve it... but I've been unable to find a translation of it. Well, I do recall seeing a few torrent downloads for the original version, but BitTorrent isn't really my thing. I suppose it would be helpful to download some scans of it so that we could at least translate the page about Venat. But in any case, genderless or not, he is still referred to using male pronouns in the Japanese Translation of FFXII, and he probably would've been referred to as such in the English version had their been more opportunities for third-person pronouns to be used when referring to him. This entire argument seems to only be about speculation and splitting hairs, but we should not make judgments based on speculation, we should make judgments based on facts. –Nahald 20:50, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
2:35 Venat speaks with the male pronoun "watashi"
Fine, here's the fact: Because the pronoun "he" (or analogous equivelant) exists in referance to Venat in the Japanese version of the game, the arguement that the game lacked the opportunity to use pronouns is automatically hogwash. Also, because Venat is only ever Identified as Venat, any pronoun is wrong. Thus I take back what I said because I now say that all pronouns be replaced with "Venat."--Werefang 19:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
