Talk:Sephiroth Clones

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[edit] Porntasy!!?

Cluna 06 - "Got any complaints?" TALK - Ho, ho, ho... Now whoever has put on the info that Cloud is gay on the Sephiroth Clones page, I am personally going to tell one of the moderators! I am dead serious about this!

Azul - "...So much for the showdown, keeping up while keeping off..." TALK - {{{time}}} XD epic lulz

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[edit] Nanaki the Clone

Whoever put that Red XIII is actually not a Clone and doesn't 'count' - I corrected that little mistake for you. Though some seem to believe for unknown reason (to me) that he is not, and was never injected with Jenova's cells, here's the proof that he was:

1. He says so. What more proof do you need. It's at the Gold Saucer, in the lobby of the haunted hotel. If you need a memory refresher, I specifically remember Tifa yells (insensitively) at him for thinking it will make a difference. Forcing him to 'be strong!'

2. He has a number. If you have time to jab an animal repeatedly with a needle, in order to ink up a marker. You have time to stick him with a syringe. And being as he doesn't appear to have a patch missing (where they undoubtedly would have had to shave his fur) I'm sure he's had that tattoo for quite some time before Cloud and Co. save the day! How much time does it take to stick someone with a needle? - You know Jenova was only a few feet away.

3. He has a number - did I already say that? Well here's another interesting tidbit of information that's just as related. Cloud doesn't have a number - and neither does Zack. The reasons given for both were that they were failures. What does this tell you? I know what it tells me: Hojo only gives numbers to the people that react 'positively' to being injected with Jenova cells. Which CLEARLY points to the tattooing process occuring not only after injection, but after analysis!

NOW

What proof is there that he WASN'T injected? Because I am dying to know.

Well, for one, Red XIII shows no effects at all of being a Clone. Sephiroth never controls him, in fact, he doesn't show the slightest bit of a reaction with anything related to Jenova. If he was injected, he would at least have some kind of reaction.

Also, in Advent Children, creatures with Jenova Cells get the Geostigma disease. Red XIII never shows any sign of being ill. --BlueHighwind ツ 00:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

That is not 'proof' and it never will be. You seriously believe that outweighes the evidence I outlined? I mean seriously? That doesn't mean I don't understand your point. But there is no indication that he 'would at least have some kind of reaction' - Based on what?

If you really REALLY BADLY, just truly, HAVE to believe that his non-reaction proves anything - go ahead, but keep in mind he WAS a different species. Which means it could just as easily prove something completely different. It is not strong enough evidence. (Sorry if I didn't comment properly, I don't really know how to communicate directly.)

Yeah, I do. Everything else with Jenova Cells react to Jenova or her children. Red XIII never does. --BlueHighwind ツ 01:12, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I REALLY hate to go this harsh, but you're either an idiot, or painfully naive. First of all 'everything else' just happened to be human. Secondly - and pay attention this time - are we supposed to believe, that on the SAME article which states that Zack and Cloud were not given numbers because they weren't worthy, that it should also state that Red XIII WAS given a number without having even been injected? Although - to you - this somehow makes sense. And what about the citation that Red XIII specifically states worry that he might be manipulated by Jenova cells? - Or how about the fact that you just really love the idea that Hojo had the time to apply a tattoo, but not enough to prick him with a teeny needle with some cells inside. Are you going to prove any of this stuff wrong, or are you just going to force me to repeat myself like I'm speaking to a moron over and over? Now is there any actual EVIDENCE that supports your theory!?

'You know what, Cloud wasn't a Sephiroth clone either because he turns on him after handing over the Black Materia, which is something none of the other clones would have done so he's not clone - right - right - c'mon - right - am I right - I think I'm right... okay, I'm right'

This is very similar to what you sound like to me. - Either offer up some real evidence or (simply deus ex machina that b**** and flip out the official Square-Enix hand book which states it specifically) or stfu - until then I make no apologies for my crass attitude. Ignorance may be bliss, but only to the person lazy enough to accept it.

Your theories are incomplete and with several faults. For instance is your third theory completely useless, as you do not know what Hojo's requirements for calling a specimen successful is. While you assume analysis, there is no proof to support this. It could simply be, if after a week the specimen hadn't died, gone insane, or fled, it was considered a successful specimen. This essentially means that after injections, no further tests are done, only external observation.

This brings me to the next point: For sake of argument, and to save time, I will agree to that Red XIII was injected with Jenova Cells, thus confirming your first and second theory. However, like Highwind mentions, Red XIII is never controlled by Sephiroth nor does he at any point show signs of Geostigma or responding to Jenova. Like you mention as a counter argument, this could be due to Red XIII being a species other than human. Now, according to Vincent's explanation of the nature of Geostigma, which is the body's way of trying to eradicate the Jenova cells, but overcompensating, the most logical theory we can reach that supports what you and Highwind have said, plus what the games seem to depict, is that due to Red XIII's different physiology, his body successfully eradicated the foreign cells from his body. If Hojo truly did only do observations after injecting the Jenova cells, this would cause him to erroneously believe Red XIII to be a successful specimen (and give him the tattoo), since his criteria had been fulfilled (still alive, still captive, still sane). However, from the what just said, it is obvious that Red XIII cannot be considered a Sephiroth clone as his body eradicates the Jenova cells entirely.

This theory is based on the same circumstantial evidence that your theories are and has just as high a probability of being correct. I foresee only few possible outcome from your next reply, though all end in a loss or at best a "draw". If you wish to throw a fit or be in denial of what was just said, be my guest, though please be aware that it will make you seem immature and double-standard as you were the one who mentioned the entire "naïve", "ignorance is bliss", etc., thing.

And just for lulz, a much simpler theory: Red was never injected to begin with, the XIII tattoo is for another project entirely, e.g. breeding/endangered specimen, but due to current events, he mistakes them as being connected. This is also based on the simple "fact" that due to Red XIII's lack of reactions to Geostigma, the reunion, and to Sephiroth, that either his body, by the time he escaped with Cloud & co., no longer contained the Jenova cells, or that he never had them to begin with. --Hecko X 03:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

'I foresee only few possible outcome from your next reply, though all end in a loss or at best a "draw"'... Umm no. But thanks for thinking of me.*

'While you assume analysis, there is no proof to support this.' So does your theory, what's the difference? Hojo would be horrible scientist if they were working with genetics yet felt no need to do bloodwork. Although, Sephiroth does state that 'Gast was a genius' [compared to Hojo] and if you believe the other wikis (which state Cloud's number wasn't given because he went vegatative) then it boils down to possible.

'...show signs of Geostigma' ... Okay, this, to me, is pretty damn idiotic. I know what Geostigma is, and I know what Vincent says. But clearly it effects children - because they have weak immune systems (it says on this wiki). This is two years after FF7? Were these kids born with Jenova cells? Did the Shinra inject them. Htf does Vincent have this information anyway? You know it effects nearly every child in Midgar (exception - Marlene) why? Just thought I'd point that out, just because he doesn't have stigma - doesn't mean he doesn't have the cells. - And vice-versa. - I'm willing to concede that this could just be a very poorly thought through plot point (- much like the timeline inconsistencies in Crisis Core)

'his body successfully eradicated the foreign cells from his body. If Hojo truly did only do observations after injecting the Jenova cells, this would cause him to erroneously believe Red XIII to be a successful specimen (and give him the tattoo), since his criteria had been fulfilled (still alive, still captive, still sane). However, from the what just said, it is obvious that Red XIII cannot be considered a Sephiroth clone as his body eradicates the Jenova cells entirely.'

• I'm willing to accept all of this as a possibility. The problem with considering it a 'loss' or a 'draw' or even a 'win' is that essentially what your argument does is create another likely alternative. (note: it still makes the first situation wrong) You can call it my ego getting in the way if you want, or you can call it a draw, or a loss I don't care. - But in my mind, if I agree; it can't be any of those things. This is something I had thought of before. But there's no further evidence to support that this is exactly the case. My argument was simply that the indicated situation (of Red XIII never having been injected) was wrong. My initial assessment of 'Clone' was anyone injected with Jenova cells. The mock sentence above proves this (as my stance), Cloud neither reacted to Sephiroth's will accordingly, and as a result it can be assumed that the cells can be fought against. (like Cloud did when he avoided killing Aeris) But, like Zack, since he was injected; he's a Clone. Look at it this way. The plot outline states that Sephiroth's willpower (because it was stronger than Jenova's) overtook Jenova's and he manipulated her consciousness through the lifestream. Cloud is a weak and feeble character (practically described that way by his own creators) but Red XIII is strong, like his father, the warrior Seto. Instead of walking around spitting the word '....Sephiroth' like a Zombie, Cloud has just a little more control over himself. - So why can't it go further? Nanaki is not weak, he's intellectual, and possibly the oldest (or second oldest) member of the party, thereby likely making him older and wiser than Sephiroth - and then; he's a different species, so maybe he's just better at fighting it.

Speculation... speculation... All I ever wanted to do was elect that the page be changed to reflect the ambiguity of the situation. While your theory is an appopriate build-off of mine, it doesn't nullify anything. Both are equally likely to be true. That's what should be reflected on the page, or it should otherwise be ignored. For example if 'blue' feels that Red XIII is not a clone why is he in the 'Clones' section. Why not place him in a sub-section under 'Possible Clones' or 'Red XIII' to seperate him and indicate the the anomalous nature of his situation.

I think it's clear that Hojo didn't 'not inject Red XIII' or forget to do it because of the Superbowl, or just thought XIII was such a cool number that he just had to tatoo him right away. - But whether or not Nanaki can be considered a 'Clone' is clearly up for debate. And I don't logically see the debate going any further than that.

I'd also like to point out that I thought Red XIII looked rather young 500 years later. I never did the math on what 'Grandpa' said so my inital reaction when I saw it was that the power of Jenova's cells must have kept him alive longer. Though after Advent Children, I now find this to be an unlikely scenerio.

Actually, and I should have done this in the first place, according to the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, there is not a single mention of Red XIII being in the Jenova Project at all. Hojo just gives numbers to creatures he thinks will be a success. (Which of course leads to a serious logical problem with Mr. Anonymous argument, because if Red XIII were a successful Sephiroth Clone and was given a number, he would act like one and have to find a dog-shaped black cloak to wear.) ---BlueHighwind ツ 12:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Highwind as far as I'm concerned. Everyone on here has made compelling argument accept for you. 'Hojo gives a number to creatures he THINKS will be a success?' yeah... there's a scientist for you. If you don't see the problem with this, I can't help you. And the entire point of the argument is that ULTIMA DOESN'T MENTION IT! Which instead of confirming your beliefs makes them open for interpretation.---

That is accurate. And Geostigma DOES mean that that there are Jenova cells in a person (by deffinition). The the children were born with it. That was from the time after Jenova's information had already become part of the lifestream. It simply hadn't become "malevolent" yet. And Zack and Cloud were not failuers. Cloud acted like every other clone. They lacked a number because they were unfinished. They had simply not recieved their tattoos yet. For me at least, it seems that Hojo gives them numbers to all experimental subjects. Jenova was not a clone but she had "1" on her. Numbers just show that Hojo was interested in them, not that they were clones.--Werefang 13:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Those kids didn't look two years old to me, they didn't come from Cloud or Red XIII, it should be assumed most of their parents are dead, having been Sephiroth clones, and children in FF7 were even called to Sephiroth - so where did these children come from? And you say that was 'the time after Jenova's cells had already become part of the lifestream. See the problem HERE! If it travels to the lifestream and hits the kids then ANYONE could get it. So it appears to be random, despite the fact that Cloud gets it because he 'has the cells'. Hojo calls Cloud a failure, that's why he wasn't given a number. They didn't recieve tattoos 'yet' hmmm... so why did Red get one. Hojo explains why he didn't give them number. Jenova DID NOT have the number 1, you specifically meet the character with the number 1. Your last sentence is wrong, everything said about giving numbers in the game conflicts with this idea. Play it again if you have to.

(EDIT CONFLIC) I'm keeping this very short: There is no difference in the credibility of the two theories, that was the entire point, I even stated that specifically. From what you write, you've obviously misunderstood what Geostigma is, how it works, and you are misquoting the wiki (it never said that). A 'Clone' is someone who's body contains the Jenova cells, i.e. if the body gets rid of them post-injection, the person would not be considered a 'Clone'. Whether or not he was better at fighting Sephiroth's influence is pretty much irrelevant, he would still feel a call to Sephiroth (otherwise their would be nothing to fight) if his body contained the Jenova cells, yet he shows no indication of this whatsoever. In fact, the quote you've referred to a number of times implies that he up till that point hadn't felt any sort of calling at all. I assume Red XIII was in the clones section because it is generally assumed that Hojo intended for him to become one. While you were right to address this point, it would have been preferred that something as ambiguous as this was discussed on the talk page before changing it since an edit-war while having a discussion is unfavorable. --Hecko X 14:17, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually there is a difference in credibility, because the first one would make Hojo's actions inconsistent to a fault. - Unless you're talking about your own theory to which I ask; what the hell is the point of bringing that up? I already said that! Actually I did read that on that on the wiki, but guess what, it doesn't matter because the children DO have Geostigma. Go ahead and split hairs if you want but it's highly likely that Red XIII continues to have cells in his body right up to Advent Children. 'He would still feel the call to Sephiroth' Did CLOUD FEEL IT! I swear to god sometimes you guys act like you wrote this game! I'm using observation here, Cloud does not feel ANYTHING outside of the point of being 'zombified' accept when it almost overtakes him! You ASSUME he was in the clones section because hojo INTENDED him to BECOME one! - Wow, well that just clears everything up doesn't it? Well no, it doesn't because because that's the point. He would have given every single other person who ever entered the project who was EVER injected with the cells a number, which he clearly doesn't do; based on what he says to Cloud. I absolutely positively 100% agree with your last sentence. It was a stupid thing to do because I wasn't thinking enough about which should have been done first. And because of the incredibility of the original theory (and oddly popular one - I assume because no one has thought very hard about it) I figured it was clearly true Red XIII had been injected, but never thought anyone would assume that his body irradicated them - while I knew it was a possibility, there's no evidence of it either way - but the game leaves it ambiguos and clearly the guides don't give any answers on the subject, so that's the way it should be on the wiki, though I doubt it will, since I don't seem to be making friends with anyone, but I AM fighting an uphill battle here, for something that seems like common sense (and later for something that is very speculative and open for interpretation). So, anyway. My thought was that based on your alternative theory the only factor is whether or not Red XIII's body destroys Jenova's cells outright. Because there's no mention of this in the game (and there very likely would be) there was no reason - I thought - to believe this would be true. If Red XIII says he was injected, then he was. If people who were injected and considered worthy were given numbers, he was. And if these two things make a Sephiroth Clone; he was. And the fact that Cloud fights it proves it can be fought. This is all IN the game and that's what I based my theory off of, finding an alternative 'middle ground theory' like the one you presented was not my goal, because cuddling a popular - wrong - theory with a speculative new theory, based on evidence that isn't there, to sooth the minds of the ones accepting the first theory; doesn't seem like a proper way to go about correcting a mistake. So that's why I presented my 'Nanaki fights it' argument despite the fact that YES I do believe your theory is highly likely - just as likely - as mine is - and also why I didn't present that idea as my original argument to begin with.

I read a bit of the anon's arguments, let me see if I understand his stance....

"my theery ar beter than urs urs iz rong and mine iz tru, my specoolation beter than ur specoolation, lolol!"

Because that's what it sounds like, you just want your speculatory theory featured over the one featured now. Drake Clawfang 17:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, think about it. Red XIII is tattooed, and yes, he worries he'll become a Sephiroth Clone. However, he never does, he never shows any vulnerability to Sephiroth's control and never contracts Geostigma in Advent Children. Is it possible to assume that the cells were expunged from his body? I doubt it because that simply makes no sense, how come no one else does that? Furthermore, his longevity has nothing to do with any Jenova cells he may or may not have, it's a trait of his species. So, which is more likely - that Hojo considered Red XIII a subject but changed his mind, or that Red XIII was a Sephiroth Clone but displayed absolutely no traits of one for some speculatory reason? Drake Clawfang 17:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

They could put the number on first and then add the Cells. that explains Hojo's experiment with Aerith/Aeris in VII AND why he has no geostigma. 1stclasswarrior 20:48, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear Red XIII is not a clone. To refute the three opening points:

1. That conversation does indeed happen, however it is far from conclusive. here's the script:

Red XIII

"Cloud..."

(He turns to face Cloud)

Red XIII

"I'm number 13. Am I going to go mad too?"

(Tifa kneels by him)

Tifa

"I don't know what Hojo did to you, but you've been all right so far, right?"

Red XIII

"But..."

Tifa

"Be strong."

(He looks at the floor)

Red XIII

"But, I..."

Tifa

"Stop it, Red XIII! Be strong!"

Cloud

"Tifa?"

Tifa

"You're not the only one who's worried!"

To me, the key phrase there is "I don't know what Hojo did to you". All we know RedXIII knows is that he as a number, for one reason or another. FF7 uses red herrings regularly, this is one of them.

2: You're assuming Hojo's prerogative was to inject RedXIII with Jenova cells. There is no proof, or even evidence for this. There are countless numbers of other things he could have decided to do to RedXIII instead, one of which we get to see (breeding him with Aeris/Aerith). Unlike humans, RedXIII is a very rare specimen and it seems unlikely Hojo would have tried such a risky procedure upon him, at least until he was done with him otherwise. He did have time to inject RedXIII with Jenova cells, but most likely didn't.

3: You claim Hojo only gives numbers to those who respond positively to Jenova injections. This is not necessarily true. Hojo gives numbers to successful experiments, regardless of whether they are in the Jenova Project or not. But where's the proof? In the FFVII Ultimania Omega. Here's a quote from the FAQ:

"*The Sephiroth Clones that make appearances in various places*

The following are the Sephiroth Clones seen branded with numbers, [as well as]

one who was [once inaccurately] concluded to be like them.

1......The one with a tattoo seen in the palm of his hand. He went from North

Corel to the Gold Saucer.

2......The man being watched over in Sector 5 [of Midgar]; he was suffering

from the effects of mako poisoning.

4......One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

5......One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

9......Exited from the entrance of the Temple of the Ancients. [This Sephiroth

Clone's] tattoo was on their neck.

11.....One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

12.....One of the wriggling black mantled people in Nibelheim.

13.....(Red XIII)

------------------------

[Analysis: While Red XIII is on this list, his placement is implied to be only

a result of him having a tattoo and of him having once believed that he might

have been like the Sephiroth Clones, as he had no idea what Hojo had done to

him. No one but Hojo and Sephiroth knew the true nature of the Sephiroth

Clones at that time, so there was some uncertainty concerning whether or not

Red XIII was supposed to be like them. Of course, it's later revealed that the

Sephiroth Clones were all survivors from the Nibelheim incident of five years

before, and in light of that, as well as the fact that Red XIII was

apprehended by Shin-Ra less than two years earlier (as seen in Before Crisis:

Final Fantasy VII) and the fact that Hojo wouldn't have wanted Red XIII to be

killed -- made evident by the fact that he said he wanted to preserve his

species back in the Shin-Ra headquarters -- it becomes apparent that Red XIII

was not a Sephiroth Clone at all.]"

So there you have it.