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I thought the Balthier | |||
Balthier's statement, "I'm the leading man, afterall." Is meant to be a joke (acknowledging the fourth wall). Fran even pokes fun at Balthier's statement. It's sort of a bad joke though seeing as he really is a better leading man than Vaan in terms of having the more important/memorable storyline, which only makes people consider how irrelevant Vaan really is to what should be either Ashe or Basche's story. | |||
We'll go with Vaan. The story is told in his point of view. | |||
I don't see how its told through his point of view. He doesn't say anything for about 2/3 of the whole game. In fact there are many points where he's just pushed into the background, completely forgotten. Even when he does come back into the story, most of the time the other characters are commenting about him, not the other way around. And the camera clearly gives a third-person veiw. Captain Obvious made me say that last part. | |||
Another argument is that a Basch-like character was supposedly the main, but they have toned this character towards the youth cohort which resulted in Vaan. | |||
By a similar token, shouldn't Celes be listed in addition to Terra for FFVI? The entire second half of the game is largely from her POV... | |||
Yes, exactly. Technically, I think Terra is the main character of the World of Balance, she has the primary storyline, but in the World of Ruin her storyline takes a severe backseat to Celes' storyline of revenge & redemption. So severe in fact that, dependent upon the player's choice, she may or may not even appear. The main character of the game as a whole is arguable. I think Celes, but I can certainly understand going with Terra. But it really doesn't make sense to choose, they're 2 separate storylines, and each one is the main character of their own story. | |||
Move[]
Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - 12:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
Is this supposed to feature ALL of the main characters or just the series' protagonists? In the second case, it shoud be moved to a more fitting name, like, let's see, "List of Protagonists"... | |||
Considering that Main Character and Protagonist are practically interchangeable terms, I don't see how changing the name would do anything. | |||
Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - 12:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
Main Characters -> Group or entities | |||
There is more than one Main Character on this page. You can't call it "List of Main Character". In fact, you can never make a list of anything in the singular form. | |||
Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - 12:38, 22 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
My patience is over. I'll take action and I hope you understand through it. | |||
I never thought you had any patience, Henry. You actually surprise me on that point. Waste your efforts. Nothing is changed. I won't oppose you though. I like to watch Sisyphusian attempts to change things. It makes me laugh. | |||
Henryacores - "É que esta noite vou lançar ao mar/A bruma que houver em mim./Vou beber e cantar este luar/vou dançar até ao fim." TALK - 13:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC) | |||
Darn it, I have no time to change the article. | |||
Dictionary says:[]
First of all, I think we should establish the definition of a protagonist. Unlike what your sixth-grade teacher told you, the protagonist is not necessarily the good guy of the story. The protagonist is the leading role, or main character, regardless of its moral alignment (even though most protagonists are depicted as heroes). For example, in the 1984 film The Terminator, it is the terminator, and not Sarah Connor, who is the protagonist. The only reason the word "protagonist" has become practically synonymous with "good guy" is that its antonym, "antagonist", is the noun variant of the word "antagonize", which is a verb that has neutral denotation but negative conotation. Armored Cavalry 21:26, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
I'm glad someone brought up the dictionary definition. You're right that is a dictionary definition. Webster gives three definitions (technically 1a, 1b, and 2). You've chosen 1a. However, 1b and 2 support the more commonly accepted view of the word protagonist, and accepting them would end these discussions about excluding Yuna, Ashe, Basche, Celes,... although quite a bit of work would still need to be done to include everyone. 1 a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or story) b : a leading actor, character, or participant in a literary work or real event 2 : a leader, proponent, or supporter of a cause Notice the presence of the word "a" in 1b and 2. The reason the good guy thing is often latched onto is the "proponent/supporter" part of the definition. While technically someone could "support" or "be a proponent" of terrorism or destroying the world. The typical world view of a sane, logical person would be to describe such people as being an "opponent of" world peace, or an "antagonist." Which brings us to another issue and defense of your poor, defenseless sixth-grade teacher, protagonist is the antonym of antagonist: 1 : one that contends with or opposes another : adversary, opponent 2 : an agent of physiological antagonism: as a : a muscle that contracts with and limits the action of an agonist with which it is paired —called also antagonistic muscle b : a chemical that acts within the body to reduce the physiological activity of another chemical substance (as an opiate); especially : one that opposes the action on the nervous system of a drug or a substance occurring naturally in the body by combining with and blocking its nervous receptor — compare agonist 2b I think it's safe to assume that we want "1" not the biological definition in this context and antonym has only 1 dictionary definition: a word of opposite meaning. Thus, many if not all of the (non-temporary) playable characters can be considered protagonists... and antagonists since they oppose the commonly accepted/chosen antagonists of their respective games (but let's just keep that last part under control). | |||
The problem is semantic as you're suggesting, but as it exists this page is really a "List of characters from whose perspective the games unfold." The page needs to either be retitled (good luck with that) or revised to include at the very least all the player characters who have their own major storylines and problems to overcome. A game is in a way a story, however due to its very nature (and typical length) it includes a lot more stories than a typical book or movie. I might be alone in this, but I'll spend a good 50 hours playing a typical Final Fantasy game, as opposed to 1.5-2.5 hours on a movie that includes as much material or more than a corresponding book that I'd spend several hours on. It is not unreasonable to believe that several stories are unfolding simultaneously via a single medium of the length of a video game. For example, in IX(Garnet is escaping from her "mother," the queen, in the hope of helping her and Alexandria; Freya is searching for her love, Sir Fratley) and in X (Yuna is the summoner who is meant to defeat Sin, Rikku is trying to prove the Al Bhed right, that the Yevonites are wrong to sacrifice summoners) and in XII (Ashe wants to restore her kingdom; Basche wants to restore his honor and prove he was framed) and in XIII (Sazh wants to be reunited with his son; Vanille wants to make amends for hurting the people of Cocoon especially Dajh). I could go back further to older games, but I'm sure you get the point. And none of those characters are considered the main character, but they certainly have their own stories and we watch and interact with them. Once stories get big enough picking a main character can and (if done well) should be difficult or even impossible. Watch a TV show that's been on for at least three or four seasons and that isn't named after one of it's characters (no offense to Buffy, House MD, Seinfeld, Chuck, etc.), but generally it's very hard to pick a main character out of the main cast. It doesn't mean those shows lack a protagonist (or protagonists) there's just more than one. They're stories written by professional writers; literary works of art, but there are multiple protagonists. If you don't watch any TV, consider Supernatural (Dean & Sam), Charmed (Phoebe & Piper), Heroes (Claire, Peter & Hiro), the Simpsons (Bart & Homer), South Park (Cartman, Stan & Kyle), or (using the terms "TV", "professional", and "art" very loosely) any number of soap operas or telenovelas. | |||
Accuracy[]
I feel the list of main characters is not accurate. Yuna and Ashe should be listed as the main characters instead of Tidus and Vaan, respectively.
It goes without saying that the story of Final Fantasy X could not exist without the summoner (Yuna). Personally, I feel Tidus ranks high among the most inane characters to ever be included in the series. Supposing he be omitted entirely, the synopsis would not change at all, and the whole story in detail would be only slightly different. Love is a reucrring theme in the series, and the only major impact Tidus seems to have on the story is to serve as Yuna's love interest.
In Final Fantasy XII, Ashe and Basche are the only necessary characters since the political intrigue associated with the story would hardly require a common street urchin. All of the events demand the presence of Ashe and perhaps Basche but could transpire fluently even without the other four characters. Balthier, Fran, Penelo, and Vaan are no more significant to Final Fantasy XII than Alicia and Lavian are to Final Fantasy Tactics. Armored Cavalry 21:36, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- The story is about those characters, but they aren't the main characters. X was told from Tidus's point of view, and although all of the conflicts revolve around Ashe in XII, it's still told from Vaan's perspective. Moocowisi 21:42, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
Point of view, like moral alignment, does not determine the protagonist of a story. Armored Cavalry 21:46, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- It doesn't necessarily determine the protagonist. Without Tidus, X would have no narrator. When the story is told in the first person, that person is the protagonist. And yes, I agree, in XII the story is about Ashe. But it follows Vaan. XII doesn't have a single main character, just one character that we're following and another that drives the story. Moocowisi 21:50, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
The stories of the previous installments were told significantly even without a narrator. It doesn't matter that Ten was told in first person or that Auron said outright, "This is your story". It still remains that even without Tidus, the story could be told with almost no differences. Besides, there are parts of the game where Tidus is incapacitated or otherwise not present. Indeed, the player even gets to take control of Yuna outside of battle. Likewise, at the end of the game, when we learn the contents of the sphere Yuna had been talking to, she is telling the same story Tidus told. The fact that Tidus is telling Yuna's story is mere irony, a powerful story-telling device.
The situation in Twelve is the same: one of the characters is telling the story of another character.Armored Cavalry 22:09, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Why are Yuna or Ashe not included in the first portions of their games? It's almost as if they aren't the primary protagonists, just plot accelerating characters. The story seems to be about Tidus and Vaan. Like VI, is Terra not the protagonist because you can beat the game without her? Or TA? Marche's actions work against his friends. Is he the antagonist? No, the character you control is the protagonist. Moocowisi 22:25, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- In my opinion, no, Terra is not the protagonist of VI. As you yourself state, the character you control is the protagonist. By that reasoning alone Terra isn't the protagonist while in the World of Ruin. Celes is (or as you might think, whoever you usually put in the first slot of your player party while aboard the Falcon). Part of an individual's perspective on this issue is going to be colored by how much time they spent in the World of Ruin and whether they bother to obtain Umaro, Gogo, and Shadow (or even the rest of the non-secret player characters) or if they complete the Tower of Fanatics, etc. If you do all those things, the World of Ruin becomes a very large part of the game, perhaps even the larger part of the game (with the World of Balance really being a prelude to the actual game). Also, one could make the argument that when Locke needs to rescue Terra near the beginning of VI, he is the main character of the game. I'm not actually saying I think Locke is the protagonist, but it could be argued. Yrl 05:06, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
- As for your argument about Yuna & Ashe, if the only thing that matters is who is there at the start of the game, then in VI Biggs & Wedge are the protagonists. Oh wait, we never see them again after the opening scene, because they're irrelevant to the story. When a character is introduced does not determine the importance/relevance of that character to the storyline. In a movie or a book you'd appear to have a point because their length works to your advantage. If you wait over an hour to introduce a character in a two hour movie, odds are he isn't the main character, but I don't see any reason why a main video game character couldn't be introduced two to five hours into a twenty to fifty hour long video game. It'd be like waiting until the second scene of a movie, or after the credits, to introduce the main character, which definitely isn't unheard of. Yrl 07:39, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
- I'd be first in line to vote Ashe as protagonist over Vaan, because in my mind she is. But officially, she is not. Vaan and Tidus are the first of the main cast the player controls, they lead the party in towns, and the story takes place from their narrative viewpoint. They are the protagonists. Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:25, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Right. Storyline importance does not come into play on this page. That's... just the way we're structuring it. 8bit 22:26, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Because if we're going to argue storyline importance, that opens the door for anyone to claim anyone is the protagonist because they find them more important to the story than whomever we list here. A lot of FFX's story could be said to be centered around Auron too. He isn't the protagonist though. Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:29, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone would choose Auron as the main character of X if they had to pick just one. If I were to go along with the structure and title of the page then I'd agree with most of the choices (just splitting VI into 2 sections WOB:Terra; WOR: Celes). But, this page is flawed. You admit it yourself, it's just the way the page is structured. The problem is words have meanings to people. The title doesn't match the page. The page either needs to be retitled or its substance needs to be modified. I don't want to write a book so look at my other posts on this page. In short, many people (I'd think the majority) would tend to assume that the protagonist would be the character of the most importance to the games plot, choosing multiple protagonists would also be fine, and they're description would include a short description of their storyline. One could still make a note of the main protagonist. Easy & pretty. The Wiki is meant to provide information to people looking for it in a logical manner. Not including "other" protagonists in a game does a disservice to the people visiting/using this site/page. Yrl 07:39, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
- Because if we're going to argue storyline importance, that opens the door for anyone to claim anyone is the protagonist because they find them more important to the story than whomever we list here. A lot of FFX's story could be said to be centered around Auron too. He isn't the protagonist though. Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:29, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Right. Storyline importance does not come into play on this page. That's... just the way we're structuring it. 8bit 22:26, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- I'd be first in line to vote Ashe as protagonist over Vaan, because in my mind she is. But officially, she is not. Vaan and Tidus are the first of the main cast the player controls, they lead the party in towns, and the story takes place from their narrative viewpoint. They are the protagonists. Doreiku Kuroofangu 22:25, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
Order of appearance does not determine a main character either. Many stories have main characters who do not appear until later. Six and Tactics Advance are "special" cases which emulate the explanation of a protagonist I gave earlier - that is, the protagonist does not have to belong to a specific moral alignment or what-have-you. I will not dispute that Terra and Marche are the protagonists of their respective stories despite deviations from popular (and flawed) ideals of a protagonist. The main protagonist can be easily identified with minor reasoning skills. Since it was already used as an example, Auron's role, though important, is not the propellant of the story. He provides the proverbial gasoline for the proverbial fire in most cases, but he is not the sole figure responsible for defeating Sin.Armored Cavalry 23:22, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- "Order of appearance does not determine a main character either. Many stories have main characters who do not appear until later."
- This is not a story, or a novel, this is a Video Game, Final Fantasy. Usually the protagonist is first, takes point in the party, and the story takes place from their point of view. It's a very flawed, weak argument, to support your views on Ashe and Yuna by applying literary techniques to a video game. Doreiku Kuroofangu 23:30, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is that the closest definition to "protagonist" that you seem to be utilizing is that defined for literary works, and using the other definitions would only weaken your argument for a single protagonist for each game. (See Definition section of this Talk page). Also, I'm sure professional writers sat down and wrote out the story presented in the Final Fantasy video games. They're too well-written to not be. Assuming you're still utilizing the "literary" definition, the argument that the first character presented is the protagonist is aided by the fact that books and movies are drastically shorter than a video game, a closer comparison would be a TV show that's been on for three to eight seasons (twenty to fifty hours) and those often have multiple protagonists Yrl 07:48, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
A video game starts out as a literary work. The only difference between a video game and a novel is visual representation of the story (it's a flawed and weak argument). You know, for the last couple of hours, I was trying to think a great example to address this POV issue: Moby Dick. Ishmael is the narrator and a character, and the story is told from his point of view, but his omission from the story would not have changed any of the events at all. Likewise, Vaan is completely insignificant to Twelve and all the import lies with Ashe. In Ten, Tidus at the very least provides the love interest for Yuna (a recurring theme); Vaan can't even accomplish that.Armored Cavalry 23:53, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Basch fon Ronsenburg#Development. Square Enix specifically diverted attention from Basch to Vaan and Penelo. I cannot argue with your opinion because then we are bringing opinions in. Go with the Square-Enix mind. Frankly, I don't see why this page exists... looking at the first character listed in each game section of playable characters accomplishes the same thing. 8bit 00:03, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
Surely you don't think the reason for said diversion makes Basch less valuable than Vaan. Although I do agree that this article duplicates what the playable characters does already.Armored Cavalry 00:20, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
- I think that my value-based comparison of Basch and Vaan is irrelevant to this page. Would anyone really be adverse to its deletion? Its primary purpose seems to be rousing debate. Which is healthy, I suppose, but the same games keep bringing up the same controversies. 8bit 00:24, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't object. I think it exists only because of the similar List of Villains page. Doreiku Kuroofangu 00:28, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
- I could see deleting it, but I think there is an opportunity to single out and briefly explain each playable character's major storyline/motivation. (Some problems might arise with characters like Vaan and Penelo, however) Then again this could just as easily be added to the "playable characters." Yrl 07:57, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't object. I think it exists only because of the similar List of Villains page. Doreiku Kuroofangu 00:28, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
I don't entirely agree with the decision that there is a single main character in each of the games, but I would generally agree with those chosen. However, despite the fact that Dissidia chose Terra, I think Celes is the main character of VI, not Terra. I think the simplest way (and most obviously correct way) to fix this would be to list Terra as the protagonist of The World of Balance and Celes as the protagonist of the World of Ruin. While it takes a while to enlist Celes as a party member, she is the first player character obtained in the World of Ruin and, while I haven't tried it, my understanding is that the entire World of Ruin part of the game can be completed using only Celes, Setzer (he has the needed airship), and any other character (Locke seems to be the most popular). How can Terra be the main character when it's possible she isn't even in the player party during the final battle? I would agree that Terra is the main character in the World of Balance since she is the first player obtained and her role is extremely important. Celes also has an extremely important role/storyline fighting though as another of the empire's main generals. Yrl 04:40, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
Most of the arguments about primary protagonists seem to revolve around Yuna and Ashe/Basche. This makes sense since they have equally important roles/goals/story-lines in their respective games compared to the "main" protagonist(particularly Ashe & Basche), however the page (as it exists) seems to be putting a lot of focus on the game's perspective, and its narration. Tidus is definitely the narrator in X, and is in many ways the player's avatar, we learn with him and our confused with him. Similary, we are inexplicably stuck playing through XII from Vaan's perspective. While he is largely irrelevant to the game's plot, the events that make up the plot are seen by him and our understanding of those events come from his perspective. Vaan also may have been chosen by Square since, like Tidus, he is a regular guy and is supposed to be the player's connection to the game world (Ivalice). Also, without changing the plot, Basche wouldn't work because he is stuck in a cage, until the player party arrives and rescues him. Starting the game with every single party member would seem weird, and we'd need even more backstory. Yrl 04:52, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
Final Fantasy XI and XIV are listed as having no protagonist, which is nonsensical since on the Final Fantasy XI page there is a very clear heading called "Story" followed by well the game's story. It even implies that each expansion pack tells a story of its own (possibly with its own separate protagonist(s)). A story must have one or more protagonists. Also, saying that the protagonist is the player character only makes sense if you are defining the protagonist as the story's narrator or the player's avatar, which in and of itself is incorrect. It implies that every person who buys the game is purchasing an entirely different game, and that there is no story present whatsoever, like "The Sims" for example. In a story, there must be a protagonist otherwise nothing occurs, which would mean there is no story. Yrl 07:06, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
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