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Gilgamesh: Enough expository banter!
This talk page is used for discussing improvements to the page "List of Final Fantasy XII weapons". It is not the place for general discussion or sharing stories about the topic of this article.

Whew!Edit

I just did a ton of work on the tables on this page, but I don't really know how to do tables very well. I just kind of used what was already there as a template and went on from there. If anything is really messed up, can someone who knows what they're doing fix it? Mymindislost 23:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You did great! I fixed only one table, the 2 handed rods table. The reason the 2 last columns were so squished is that the first 5 columns already added 100%. They all look cool and complete now Renmiri 20:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, good! Someone fixed it! I thought it was probably something like that, but, like I said, I don't know anything about tables. Guess I'll have to read up on the now-existent markup page about tables. Thanks again! :D Mymindislost 20:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page have stats for the weapons and that? Hexed 22:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Great idea. Are you volunteering to do so ? Renmiri 20:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I could see what I can do about it... after I sleep. Becuase I am TIRED. O_O Mymindislost 20:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The markup page won't be complete for at least a couple of weeks. I have 2 exam assignements I have yet to turn in and then oral exams after that. --Hecko X 22:18, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

You know... Edit

CSM
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Stats Done!Edit

Celes Chère menu
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Celes Chère menu
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HELP Edit

Could anybody that knows tell me something? When you are selling the stones and such in order to unlock the good weapon in the bazaar, do you need to sell those items at once or is it just overall? Please respond to my talk page to answer. it would help out a lot.--User_talk:JamesTFord1987 04:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

You must sell the exact quantity of each item at once, but you can sell other items later as in: I have 4 Magicite and 5 Crystals, for an item that needs 4 crystals and 3 magicite. I must sell 4 crystals at a time and 3 magicite at a time as well. If I sell less, I'll have to have a stock of 4 crystals and 3 magicite again as the variable acts on the condition you sold X itens on X time and will not sum how many items you have sold. - Henryacores^ 04:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Adding images?Edit

Celes Chère menu
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Celes Chère menu

Trivia sectionEdit

"If the letter-ended weapons (N,T,etc) are sorted by attack, the result will be as follows:"

Can someone please translate this sentence into English for me? It just sounds like gibberish. Kajillion 10:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Random Edit

Can someone clarify for me what the 'Random' in the damage formulas means? Great MaraMessage 19:10, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Measures Edit

Measures in Final Fantasy XII don't buff the wielder--or at least the one that gives you protect doesn't. Could that be a feature of the international version? I didn't want to change it, just in case it was. Besides, I figured that I should try more than one measure first.

If it did work this way, surely the auto-haste and auto-bubble measures would be two of the best weapons in the game!

Give them all a try, or else see if there are any demonstration videos on YouTube. The measures are much more useful than people make them out to be! Tia-LewiseRydia - Young battle 18:50, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

TableEdit

On the colspan rows (the location text) I used height:1px. From this I have learnt that it has the desired effect in Firefox (making the row as short as possible), has no effect in IE, and seems to have had the opposite effect in Chrome. 79.69.192.142 12:46, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it has no effect in Chrome and it just makes the top row short by default. 79.69.192.142 12:48, February 1, 2013 (UTC)

Ashe's starting weaponEdit

Ashe's starting weapon was a longsword and the Zwill Blade came to the shop around the same time Ashe joined the party.188.238.249.105 09:14, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

I think you are right. Thanks for the correction.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 12:46, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Dummied & Monster WeaponryEdit

There's quite a few weapons that were dummied out, but not only that, enemies also wield unique weapons. The Esper's wield weapons, Gilgamesh's fake weapons, and some regular enemies. They all have statistics. How do we document these? Create a list of enemy weapons article? Link: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/459841-/59640526

The weapon list articles are specifically for weapons the player equips (e.g. storyline-only weapons are not put to weapon lists); I would keep them separate. The enemy "weapon" info probably belongs in the enemies' individual articles, but then it would be handy to link somewhere from there as well...Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 01:36, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

IZJS differencesEdit

Hey guys, shouldn't we add the stats of the weapons in the international version? A few days ago I wanted to see which elements the Staff of the Magi and the Cloud Cloud Staff enhanced (in the IZJS), but I couldn't find it here. And many weapons have been powered up in this version. I think this page should have information about both versions. Or do you think we must create a page specific to the IZJS weapons? 189.110.234.203 18:45, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Ordinarily we would note version differences on the page. So yes, we should add the stat-changes. I would suggest that for each stat that changes we add "<br>{{foot|[IZJS stat]|Stat in IZJS version}}". JBed (talk) 19:02, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
Ok. I'll probably sign up and start doing this.189.110.213.244 09:31, July 14, 2013 (UTC)

Masamune IEdit

Scott_coop-1-.gif

Hero's Blade Edit

Is it also Hero's Blade in this render (Rasler)?Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 18:12, December 10, 2014 (UTC)

Split pages Edit

There's no way we can continue with the current layout for IZJS and the original. It makes absolutely no sense to help readers find what they need. I suggest we split it into two pages - one for IZJS and one for original - or we just make two separate sections. A ZJS header, with axes, hammers, guns etc subheaders, then an original header, with axes, hammers, and the like as subheaders of that.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 23:54, July 2, 2017 (UTC)

It might be best to split it because there are so many version differences, but linking to weapons from other articles could be annoying. I think we can call the new setup "The Zodiac Age" rather than "Zodiac Job System". I'd call them List of Final Fantasy XII (original) weapons and List of Final Fantasy XII The Zodiac Age weapons. (PlayStation 2) might be clearer for most for the former, but The International Zodiac Job System was also PS2.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 01:13, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Good point about the linking issue...hadn't thought about that. Maybe just creating a /original page might be better. I think for the time being I could create a Zodiac Job System and Original main headers for the list and magicks pages and then if that's not enough we can split, and on tables we come across put Zodiac Job System first. The reason I think using Zodiac Job System is better is to clarify that this also applies to IZJS and not just the TZA release.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 01:17, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
/Original could work, but people might not find it. Could link to it very prominently from the main weapon list. In any case, I think having them split is good because then you can link to the weapon/armor you want depending on the version, because we're gonna need two treasure lists and two enemy templates (??) and everything. With tabs you can't really link to the second tab. But then we'll have to really look that everything links to the correct version of the weapon, which is annoying.
I think The Zodiac Age is better because it is more accessible. People outside of Japan need to go out of their way to play IZJS, so they will know what that one is, they won't just happen to pick it up from Walmart bargain bin which could happen with The Zodiac Age. Now, everyone can probably guess that the Zodiac Job System is the Zodiac Age game, but it will look odd to have a name they may not have ever heard of. I think we should always strive to present content in the way that even if you had only a vague impression what Final Fantasy is, you can still use it.
Tangent, but some years ago I was reading/editing Lightning Returns articles and just from nowhere it said something like "According to Yuji Abe..." no preface, no nothing. Who the F is Yuji Abe, I thought. Now we probably have an article for Yuji Abe where I could go educate myself, but since then I have tried to remember to put everyone's title when they are first mentioned in an article, even for the "obvious" ones like Tetsuya Nomura, because it's not going to be obvious to everyone who Tetsuya Nomura is...Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 09:05, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Could just call it "Zodiac". Then people who know of only one of IZJS and TZA would assume it refers to their version but we were just being short with the name, and people who know of both would think it's so it can refer to both. Maybe slightly less confusing than "Zodiac Job System".
If we want linkability to be improved, we could just change the design to like:
JBed (talk) 09:45, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Hm, not sure I agree that people won't know what Zodiac Job System is when it says in the game. And when the title is "Zodiac Age", I think people can make the connection. However, you could argue that since this is an English wiki and the IZJS version isn't well known it may make some sense.
I think it's best to have /Original versions of list pages, possibly Magick and License Board too. We could make a template, kind of like "see also", to place at the top of pages to link to the page for the other version of the game. It could be used for FFIV 3D, FFVII Remake when it's released as well. We could call it "version" or something. Sound good? The only question then would be what to do about all these location pages which list treasures and shops...
And while I'm not opposed to collapsibles in the layout, I don't think the above solution is the best when it doesn't work on mobile. I think the appearance and the layout are more important than convenience of editors to link to sections. If we did do collapsibles, I'd rather template it.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 09:55, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
The above design doesn't use collapsibles, I just collapsed it so it didn't take up space on the talk page.
The problem with the "on a different page" design is that it doesn't really work when we link to Mythril Sword using "List of Final Fantasy XII weapons#Mythril Sword". You'd have to know to scroll to the top of the page to even find out about that page.
As with FFVII Remake and what we should probably be doing for FFIV Remake, we should treat them as completely separate games. Therefore a link to Buster Sword in a gameplay section would unambiguously refer to either the original or the remake. JBed (talk) 10:14, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Still not convinced editor convenience when it comes to linking from other pages is more important than reader convenience when scrolling through this one. It's much better in my view to treat the Zodiac releases as default when any future version of XII will probably be using it, and therefore much easier to move old content to a /original page linked to at the top.
It might make sense to make a Project:Differing Versions Policy or something really, to keep track of how we cover things, since version differences go beyond added content and translation differences now.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 11:50, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
I am not talking about editor convenience. When a reader sees "Mythril Sword" linked on a XII page it's going to link to "List of Final Fantasy XII weapons#Mythril Sword". If they are playing the original version of XII and click that link they are going to be directed straight to the Zodiac information and not have a clue that the original version is different nor how to get to it. They will not know to scroll to the top of the page to get to the alternate page. JBed (talk) 16:08, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
This sounds easier to solve with something like <br/>[[/Original#Broadsword|Original stats]] below the table link than with merging pages, due to load times. For the record I would support doing the same thing on FFIV 3D weapons/armor as well.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 17:08, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

FFIV equipment are already on different pages: List of Final Fantasy IV weapons and List of Final Fantasy IV 3D weapons. However, there is nothing in the name of the former that gives clue that this does not cover all versions! There is also List of Final Fantasy IV Easy Type weapons. Links are probably wrong everywhere.

I don't have that big opinion on what should the new style look like, same article or different article. As long as you can easily find it depending on which version you need. I still think treasures should be on subpages for FFXII because of their unique nature, like Nalbina Dungeon/Treasures, and then link to them from Treasure (Final Fantasy XII) also. Each location has a treasure "theme", like all common treasures are potions or fangs or this area has a lot of money, so the "treasure theme" could be explained in the main article on what you could expect to find here (I have already done it for the original!), and then the specific treasure list in a bigass table that I think could be a subpage. And a map would be useful, but that's hard to make. All of the treasures were re-done for the Zodiac version, as I understand they are not even a little bit the same.

Also I think calling the re-release Zodiac is a great idea like (Zodiac) for tag if it was needed.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 21:05, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I know FFIV equipment is on different pages already, but what I mean is that in the table on the list pages below the names we should link to that weapon on the 3D page. If we do make separate pages, that is, which it looks like is the best idea.
I actually wouldn't be opposed to moving treasures to subpages of the location, but to be fair, shops are huge as well. Should we create /Shops pages too? Which would also be fine with me.
Also, would you be opposed to create a Project:Release Versions Policy or something to that effect? I could maybe start a forum on it after we resolve this issue, ie after we make /Original subpages. That is, if we're going with that name?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 22:31, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

The /Original link in each row would be a passable solution, although I personally don't think we should prioritise Zodiac by requiring Original to have one more page request. Again, I think IV 3D is a completely different beast and I think we ought to treat it as its own game, enemy pages and all. On the other hand, the IZJS just tweaked a bunch of values to give a fresh experience to XII. Most enemies received only a few tweaks: the XII Int Ultimania lists the few changes rather than having a full bestiary of its own. It's best comparison is IV EasyType. It doesn't supersede the original (otherwise it would have just been called "Final Fantasy XII HD Remaster").

If we're speaking of load times, making someone load the IZJS weapons page to get to the Original weapons page would take even longer to load! I think my ideal solution would be to make a page for every weapon (e.g. "Mythril Sword (Final Fantasy XII)") where we have Original and Zodiac sections for the stats (in infoboxes?). That would eliminate my main issue: XII weapon links go straight to these quickly-loading uncluttered pages with all the relevant information in one click. Then we can have SeeAlso links to LoXII Original Weapons and Zodiac Weapons articles. Readers can click the SeeAlsos if they want to view that weapon in the context of other weapons in their version of the game. The Other Appearances stuff on this article can go on each individual weapon article instead. JBed (talk) 22:36, July 3, 2017 (UTC)

Still would rather prioritise IV 3D given how all the recent releases are based on IV 3D and that's what the majority of people will be playing, but it is definitely a different beast. While it's true that making someone load two pages will probably be worse on load times, that will affect a much smaller number of people, far less people will want to access the /Original page than will want to access the Zodiac stats, hence it is more important to prioritise loading time pages for the larger number of users.
Small weapon pages with barely any content, aside from being a huge amount of work that would take forever, is pretty terrible for SEO, as very few of them will have any unique content aside from the unique weapons. It has more potential to be detrimental. Creating List of Final Fantasy XII weapons/Original, or List of Final Fantasy XII (original) weapons, seems like the best bet to help most users.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 22:48, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Mmm... Well. About FFIV: DS: 3D, jMob: GBA, Wii: SNES, PSP: 2DPSP, PSN: PS1 [i assume], iOS/Android: 3D, Steam: 3D. Okay, so you're technically right about the recent releases, but the PSP remaster is actually the most recent new version (i.e. not a direct port). And if you want to play Interlude (for the complete experience), you'll be playing the 2D versions.
As for small pages, SEO: [citation needed]; time: would take me a day, tops; unique content: Doesn't matter because they themselves will be the technical main page for the weapons, rather than having their data buried in two separate pages. It allows easier comparisons of the changes made. JBed (talk) 23:02, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
Honestly, most recent new version matters far less than which version is more likely to be played.
Unique content matters hugely both for reader value and for SEO. If a page contains a table with two rows at most, then it has little value to the reader, compared to pages containing all the information for the release of the game they need for whichever version they're playing. The small number of readers who may be curious about what changed will just have to make do with having two tabs or two windows open.
I just spoke to Angelina from Fandom to confirm this. Pages that are too short and not helpful will in the majority of cases rank lower, in 99% of cases the most helpful page ranks. We may even end up in instances where searching for "mythril sword ffxii" would get you "Mythril Sword" before it gets you "Mythril Sword (Final Fantasy XII)", defeating much of the point. I would like to split weapon pages in an ideal world as well, but with very few exceptions, there is basically no content to write at all.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 23:36, July 3, 2017 (UTC)
(started writing this before your response) I started reading this. I'm not entirely sure. A lot of the proposed content is available on other pages, but would Google recognise it as duplicated? I assume this is primarily the search engine trying to not associate headers and footers with a page's contents. The information will be framed in a different way, and not wholly found on any other article.
Currently searching "mythril sword ff12" brings up our Mythril Sword article but not our weapons list article. Searching "Trango Tower" brings up our XIIWeapons article, but only fourth behind non-FFWiki pages. Searching "Goblin ffv" brings up Goblin (Final Fantasy V) first and Goblin fourth (with the two intermediate pages still being FFWiki results).
I would think this would be positive for us on search engines, not negative.
(following your response) I think the keywords here are "too short and not helpful". Because it's all about what people do after finding these articles. People are less likely to stay on short pages for longer simply because there's less to see, sure. But do we expect people searching for Mythril Sword ff12 will back out to Google upon seeing the highly relevant article that clearly covers their version of the game? More likely they'll be satisfied and leave the tab open/close it or -- drive them to the clearly signposted other pages because it offers many relevant paths to read down-- like links to the where the weapon is found, or the full lists). A problem with many list pages is that they only link on the first mention of something: this I hear is better for SEO, however someone looking for info on that weapon won't have location links to click to find out more information. This might be a moot point here though since XIIWeapons doesn't follow that rule.
There are also other potential benefits and unique content that can go into individual pages. Japanese names, Trivia, and Etym about specific items either currently don't go on pages or are relegated to the bottom. List of Final Fantasy IV items relegates its Acquirement list to a different section (BAD!). It only shows one translation's description. And how it also only shows one translation for its name(?? shouldn't do that) and doesn't signpost which translation uses which name. JBed (talk) 00:22, July 4, 2017 (UTC)
There are plenty of benefits to making individual weapons pages but if a page has little unique content then it could prove detrimental to the ridiculous amount of effort it'd take, plus we'd have to decide which games we do this for (ie probably no reason to do this for mobile spinoffs). I would rather see an example in a sandbox before signing off on it to see if it really does help users, plus this may need a forum first anyway. Would happily make an infobox for equipment if there is actual content.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 06:10, July 4, 2017 (UTC)

Individual pages for FFXII might actually work because you could have more space to explain version differences, treasure location & spawn criteria, license info/who can equip, and unique conditions like that the starting Mythril Sword in FFXII is actually unique and if you sell it you'll never get it back. FFXII has many weapons that basically need a guide as to how to obtain, so that's why Yagyu Darkblade has such a long section for FFXII. Many weapons obtained from the bazaar, from sidequests and from rare game that could benefit from a single how-to-obtain guide without needing to scroll through more than one article.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 11:04, July 4, 2017 (UTC)

So if we did it, would we only do it for XII and maybe IV and not other games? And would it only apply to equipment, or to items and spells too?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 11:50, July 4, 2017 (UTC)
FFXIII has enormous stats tables for each weapon that are in subpages, so that could be an option to display them. Although, the rule already was that individual equipment pieces can have their own article if there is a sidequest to get it or otherwise too much info for the main equipment list, hence Cursed Shield. Maybe it should just be used more, like make one for Diamond Armlet...
They changed the spell skillsets from FFXII to the ZJS version, so something probably needs doing there. Keeping abilities in skillsets tends to work though. But should there be two Green Magicks articles, one for the original and one for the re-release, if the spells in them are different between versions?Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 14:31, July 4, 2017 (UTC)
So we should maybe only create individual equipment pages for games with two sets of stats per piece (at least for the time being)? That would be fine with me, and easier to relink with the bot. Agreed with keeping abilities in skillsets and creating separate pages. White Magicks (Final Fantasy XII) and White Magicks (Final Fantasy XII Zodiac)?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 16:34, July 4, 2017 (UTC)
We have this policy that all spell articles (and all Technicks too I believe per "treated equivalently to spells by the game") get an article even for one appearance. Although if anything appears twice then they just turn into recurring-spell articles. Contents-wise a single-ability and recurring-ability article have the same stuff for a game, but the former can be considered a main article for a ability in a game while the latter cannot.
My point being is that we have articles like this anyway: Telekinesis (Final Fantasy XII), Toxify, and Balance anyway.
Anyhow, here is this. If you want to put a standard "Equipment" infobox in the top-right with things like image, link to recurring-appearance, weapon category, earliest available location, etc. then whatever.
The idea is that most of the Stats stuff would be in /Data modules so the Stats tables can be generated simply and edited uniformly. Once the data's down these articles won't be difficult to make.
The Mythril Sword is actually more interesting than most weapons so I don't expect intros like this example on most weapons. JBed (talk) 18:41, July 4, 2017 (UTC)
Hm. While it feels a little barebones, it does feel like it could work for XII weapons, and presumably IV's as well. I would definitely say only make individual pages for games with two sets of stats per weapon, even if only for the time being before working out if this is worthwhile for other games.
Not sure how I feel about the full-width infoboxes being used. They should probably be using horizontal/smart groups rather than listing info vertically. If the infoboxes take data from an FFXII Data module, which is easy to do with <default>{{#invoke:FFXII Data|Weapon|[stat]|{{{name}}}}}</default> or something, then this works fine. While I would prefer an "Obtained" header like I did for the summon pages, I recognise this'd be a huge pain to do versus just adding it in the data, and it may make more sense to only include that for weapons like Zodiac Spear.
An Equipment infobox in the top-right would definitely be better, I can make one of those.
Still not convinced we should create pages like "Fire (Final Fantasy XII)" and would still rather make separate Magicks pages (and preferably, the Navbox should use Zodiac links rather than OG FFXII links).--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 00:26, July 5, 2017 (UTC)

I think JBed's example looks good. I think separate magicks skillsets between Zodiac & original would work, although some skillsets have been changed more than others. Black and White Magicks are not so different but Arcana Magicks is like completely changed, if I recall. I don't know if the damage formulas are the same, but there is also no damage cap now and no Effect Capacity. Where you get the spells and where they are on the license grid are also probably different between versions.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:05, July 5, 2017 (UTC)

Hm, could look up the new formula somewhere. So should it be "White Magicks (Final Fantasy XII)" and "White Magicks (Final Fantasy XII Zodiac)", or "White Magicks (Final Fantasy XII)" and /Original? While the former may look neater, it's also a huge pain for linking, and we should probably link to Zodiac more often than original...so I'd prefer the latter.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 10:34, July 5, 2017 (UTC)
If it is made really obvious where the original version's info is, then I think the latter would work.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:38, July 5, 2017 (UTC)

Created infobox at Template:Infobox equipment. Should be time to create the individual weapons/armor pages for XII and IV, update ACP and then I'll split Magicks/lists to /original pages? Would like to get this done soon as we can, before TZA launches if possible.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 00:11, July 6, 2017 (UTC)

Looks good!Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 10:22, July 6, 2017 (UTC)
Does this one work too? If so I can use it on pages. Otherwise, done splitting this one, time to split armor, accessories, license board and magicks next, maybe items too. Stuff like enemy abilities is lower priority.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 12:27, July 6, 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I think it's obvious enough. Cat (meowhunt) 18:31, July 6, 2017 (UTC)
Split the skillsets and license board now. Just wondering if it's worth splitting items and armor if those pages will be handled by the FFXII Data module?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 21:40, July 6, 2017 (UTC)

Technobliterator: Values from data can now be pulled like this:

{{#invoke:FFXII Data|rawget|Weapons|attack|name=Mythril Sword|original=true}}->13

Or

{{#invoke:FFXII Data|value|Weapons|attack|name=Mythril Sword|original=true}}->13

The former just gets the value as it is found in the data, while the latter adds formatting in some cases.

So we can:

  • Write an infobox in a template that uses multiple of these and puts paremeters in them,
  • Build an infobox in a template, and then write a function in Lua that uses expandTemplate to pass the values (allowing us to use one query to pass all the values, and gives us a usable template that doesn't require use of the data (if there'd ever be a reason for that)),
  • Or write a function in Lua that builds the infobox itself using defaults every time

I'm not good with the design side of things so I'd prefer to leave that to you if I could.

As an aside, once pages are made for each weapon, the issue of needing a "main" list of weapons goes away. Except for linking to weapon types. So once the weapon articles are created would it better to subpage the Zodiac information too? General discussion of each weapon type can still go on "List of Final Fantasy XII weapons", and no need to link to "Original stats" because the page name makes it clear what version it is. JBed (talk) 13:23, July 8, 2017 (UTC)

I was thinking of doing the first option, and that seems like the most sensible way to do it - thanks for building the modules, I'll get to the full-width infobox after going gym.
Hm, that is a good point. It might be best to subpage Zodiac information and not treat one as the "default", while the main page just links to both, so I would agree with doing that. We could also put the weapon models in a gallery under the weapon type similar to list of enemies, with main links to the subpages at the top of the type headers and links to the weapons' pages in the gallery captions.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 13:41, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
Made a start on Template:Infobox weapon stats FFXII. It seems to be only getting Mythril Sword though. Only questions are how I can check if a weapon has no equivalent in the original FFXII (so that the last two sections do not appear), and how I should check the on-hit parameter (should I just have an if for each one)?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 16:14, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
I've added matches which returns the number of results that match the given criteria:
  • {{#invoke:FFXII Data|matches|Weapons|original=true|name=Masamune I}}: 0
  • {{#invoke:FFXII Data|matches|Weapons|name=Masamune I}}: 0
  • {{#invoke:FFXII Data|matches|Weapons|name=Masamune}}: 2
So you can test the name with original=true or zodiac=true to check whether it's one of them.
As for the status and element parameters, yeah, you'll have to process each one. You can do that in wikitext, but it would probably be better to create a function for it in Module:FFXII Data. JBed (talk) 16:42, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
The matches function may be difficult to use, it'd be better if it returned null so I could use it with if. Any chance you can make the function that processes each?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 17:45, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
You can just use #ifexpr which tests for 0.
And yeah, I'll make a function. Or functions: There's Effect and Potency for elements, Equip and On Hit for statuses. BTW, you have the "value" field headered with "Element". JBed (talk) 18:29, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
{{#invoke:FFXII Data|onhitstatuses|Weapons|name=Guriguri Banban|zodiac=true}} -> Script error
{{#invoke:FFXII Data|equipstatuses|Weapons|name=Wyrmhero Blade|zodiac=true}} -> Bravery; Faith
{{#invoke:FFXII Data|effectelements|Weapons|name=Iga Blade|zodiac=true}} -> Water
{{#invoke:FFXII Data|potencyelements|Weapons|name=Staff of the Magi|zodiac=true}} -> Ice; Wind; Holy
JBed (talk) 19:09, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
So the onhitrate applies to all of these? Can more than one apply to a weapon at once?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 19:41, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
? There isn't a weapon with both potency and effect, there isn't a weapon with both on-hit and equip, there are weapons with both on-hit and potency/effect.
Every weapon (I think there was only one) that has multiple on-hit statuses has the same hit rate for all statuses. I don't know if the game's programmed with one value for on-hit rate with flags for each status, or if a different integer is assigned for each status which just happens to be the same in the cases with multiple.
And if what you are asking is if onhitrate applies to anything other than onhitstatuses: no. Potency makes all attacks of that element used by the character always 50% stronger, effect makes all normal attacks always do damage of that element, and equip statuses puts the character always in that status. JBed (talk) 20:05, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
Not totally sure how onhit is supposed to work then. Do you mind doing that field?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 20:54, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
What do you mean? >{{#invoke:FFXII Data|onhitstatuses|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}} gives you a list of statuses that can be inflicted on-hit, with the odds of each status being inflicted following the statsuses in brackets. That is all you need to know about on-hit. JBed (talk) 21:09, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
Should be good now I think, you just need to type {{FFXII Weapon Stats|Mythril Blade}} and I think it does everything right unless there are a couple errors here and there.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 23:24, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
  • There is a case of a weapon in original but not in Zodiac: Danjuro. It'd be easier to just have the template cover a single version, use a parameter to specify, and have the template appear on pages twice. It also avoids the problems arising if they retranslate a weapon's name (though it's unlikely).
  • "element" is not a property in the data. As I gave above: A weapon can have an Effect element: The weapon deals damage of that element with its attacks. I created an "effectelements" function to list and link to that element. A weapon can have one or more Potency elements: Abilities of that element used deal 50% more damage. I created a "potencyelements" function to list and link those elements.
  • There is a case of a weapon having Equip statuses. When that weapon is equipped the user gains those statuses. I created a "equipstatuses" function to list those statuses.
  • Some types of weapon can increase mp, speed, magickpower, and vitality.
  • Weapons can increase either combo or critical (or neither). Whether you want to display that in two fields or have them conditionally replace each other is up to you.
  • Like with Knockback and Range, a weapon's Formula is usually based on the weapon type. Also like with Knockback and Range, there are some exceptions. Although I haven't thought about how we'll display formulas. I will at least put them on LoFF12 weapons, then we can link to them that way. I'll probably create a function that outputs the relevant formula, but I don't know if we should also put it on each infobox.
  • There are some weapons that have a flag (onhitnodamage) that means when they inflict their on-hit status, they do not inflict damage. Don't know how to display that. Maybe just display "(no damage)" after "On-hit", perhaps with a foot with more clarity.
  • Zodiac has some weapons without a model. There's a flag (nomodel) in the data. In those cases we have an image of a character attacking with the weapon so it might not be necessary to include it. Hmm... I wonder if they'll add models for Zodiac Age.
JBed (talk) 10:55, July 9, 2017 (UTC)
  • Template for single version - hm I'm not sure. I primarily kept them on the same template for consistency with FFXII Enemy Stats. However if it's only one weapon then it doesn't make sense to add a bunch of ifs for the Zodiac version, so maybe it's best to do that.
  • Element, equip statuses, on hit - yeah honestly, I don't understand how that stuff works, and don't get the explanation here, you might be better off just making those fields yourself.
  • Weapon types increasing power - should just require an expr?
  • Damage formulas: link to them on LoFF12 weapons for now.
  • (no damage) after "on-hit" - sure I guess.
  • Models are not included in FFXII Enemy Stats, they are included in the Equipment template, so just add no image to that.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 11:33, July 9, 2017 (UTC)
When I said "some weapons can increase [various stats]", what I was saying was weapons like Rods have stat increases in stats like Magick Power and MP. Although mentioning weapon types probably made things confusing: Each individual weapon can have stat increases in various stats that are not currently factored into the template.
And I'd prefer you did understand how those four things work so I don't have to design how to display them. I don't really know what you're confused about. But whatever:
    <group row-items="4" show="incomplete">
        <data><label>Effect</label><default>{{#if:{{#invoke:FFXII Data|effectelements|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|{{#invoke:FFXII Data|effectelements|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|None}}</default></data>
        <data><label>Potency</label><default>{{#if:{{#invoke:FFXII Data|potencyelements|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|{{#invoke:FFXII Data|potencyelements|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|None}}</default></data>
        <data><label>On-hit</label><default>{{#if:{{#invoke:FFXII Data|onhitstatuses|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|{{#invoke:FFXII Data|onhitstatuses|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|None}}</default></data>
        <data><label>Equip</label><default>{{#if:{{#invoke:FFXII Data|equipstatuses|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|{{#invoke:FFXII Data|equipstatuses|Weapons|name={{{1|}}}|zodiac=true}}|None}}</default></data>
    </group>
JBed (talk) 13:31, July 9, 2017 (UTC)
Okay I think I added it in properly. Before we finish this off, there is one thing that would be really useful. Is it possible, instead of using ifexpr, for the FFXII Data module to return null when the zodiac/original version of the weapon doesn't exist, and return "None/Cannot buy/etc" when it does but Drop/Steal etc don't? Might be better for the module to handle it instead of parser functions.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 20:03, July 9, 2017 (UTC)
I can make rawget return a specified value if null. {{#invoke:FFXII Data|rawget|Weapons|initial|name=Durandal|nil value=A}} -> A.
I'm not making it return a blank string if no results are found. It's purpose is to find a specific single result, and I wouldn't want a result not found error to be the same as a nil or empty string of a valid result. If you don't want to repeat the matches invoke over again you can just store the result in {{Var}}. JBed (talk) 21:32, July 9, 2017 (UTC)
Seems pointless using if and ifexpr parsers all the time, that adds way too much to loading times compared to just changing it in the module, and Var probably makes it worse.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 22:44, July 9, 2017 (UTC)
If you can demonstrate any noticeable increase to loading times I'll do something about it.
I don't think storing one 1-length string in Lua is really going to be slower than re-querying the data.
And if these small increases in loading times really matter that much to you, then create the infobox/use expandTemplate from Lua.
JBed (talk) 04:49, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, but there should be no need to demonstrate anything "noticeable". It is a fact that parser functions make loading slower and it is a fact that that matters to users particularly on mobile networks. It is also a fact that Lua is handled on the serverside and that a single invoke therefore requires far less memory than parsers with multiple invokes. Unnecessary user of parsers, other than being ugly to code, adds way too much to load times to be worth protecting the "integrity" of the module.
Considering RS Wiki's proposal to generate infoboxes in Lua was rejected, that is probably not possible. I fail to see how use of expandtemplate would avoid the problem. Either way, the loading times of users is far more important than some arbitrary idea of how the module should run.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 09:36, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
"It is also a fact that Lua is handled on the serverside and that a single invoke therefore requires far less memory than parsers with multiple invokes." I don't know what this means. Parsers are also server-side. And also this should have nothing to do with "mobile networks" because the server returns the same data either way.
"Sorry, but there should be no need to demonstrate anything "noticeable"", okay, but you would be more convincing if you applied this always and not only when it suited you. Like that "Database queries" part in Module:Codename that runs every time Module:Codename is invoked rather than just put it in Module:Codename/data where it is run only the first time that data is loaded. You were willing to ignore load time for other reasons.
Now I do care about load times for our users. I don't care about a handful of parser functions! And I am definitely more concerned about using p.value as many times as we are because we're having to re-query the data every time and that is definitely wasteful -- but also not that significant since these pages are relatively short anyway so I've just been "whatever"ing it.
Using expandTemplate means we can reduce EVERYTHING to one invoke. We query for the relevant record once, and then plug the values into infobox parameters. JBed (talk) 11:41, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
Edit: Actually wait, none of this would be an issue if we just did what we said before and made the template only single-version, and used it twice. Right? JBed (talk) 13:15, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
I believe so, and that seems like the best solution if the other, more "elegant", solutions are at risk of increasing load times.
That said, if we (by which I mean you; I don't know enough about FFXII Data) were to compare the solutions Special:ParserSpeed and find that they have the same load time, up to, say, a tenth of a second on a typical page, then it doesn't matter which solution is used. In particular, JBed's original solution with #ifexpr would be the most logical implementation in this case. Cat (meowhunt) 23:45, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
EDIT: ParserSpeed doesn't seem to exist anymore. Single-version template it is! Cat (meowhunt) 23:46, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
Tbh I really hate the idea of using a single-version template, due to inconsistency and pointless duplication needed, but it is the least bad option between that and bloating the code and load times of the template.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 23:55, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
Unfortunately the most elegant solutions are not the most effective. You wouldn't compute the Fibonacci numbers by naked recursion would you? Cat (meowhunt) 23:59, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
EDIT CONFLICT: Techno has objected to my support for #ifexpr in IRC PM on the grounds that "the code is not readable at all". This is probably a moot point, but nonetheless, I feel like I should justify my views on coding style.
MediaWiki is a terrible language. Nearly anything we do in MediaWiki will look ugly and be difficult to read; the addition of one #ifexpr doesn't make it particularly better or worse in either case. As such there is little reason to stress the importance of readability in MediaWiki, because it will be a write-only language regardless. Coding style is actually important when writing Lua. Cat (meowhunt) 23:59, July 10, 2017 (UTC)

JBed - is this still happening? Or is there something blocking it from happening now?--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 11:29, July 13, 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, I haven't even seen the template since the above discussion because I've not spent time wikiing (besides doing TCG which I do a specific amount of every day anyway). Once I've done the Armor lists I'll move onto creating Weapon articles. JBed (talk) 13:05, July 13, 2017 (UTC)
Ok no problem, just asking because the List of FFXII weapons page received a spike in viewership.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 23:53, July 13, 2017 (UTC)
As it is, the Weapons list is useful for TZA players and acceptable for those reenthused to play the PS2 version. Splitting the Armor et al lists seems more pressing because they currently cater well to PS2 XII but not very well to TZA.
Also the weapon articles aren't that complicated so someone else wants they can start it. I'll be able to start today or tomorrow providing I don't encounter more distractions. JBed (talk) 08:31, July 14, 2017 (UTC)
You probably have a better idea of what you want from the weapons articles, so I'll leave those (or at least the first few) to you. Can handle the armor articles if you like, though.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 00:13, July 15, 2017 (UTC)
"moved original to subpage, not sure I should add the links yet though since when these tables are generated with invoke they'll have the links?"

No, which is why I didn't convert the IZJS tables yet. As suggested earlier, when the Weapons/Armor pages exist, it would be easiest to subpage Zodiac too and so there won't be much point in linking between the lists. Not least because each weapon entry in a table will link to a page specificially for covering its stats in both versions anyway.

Although I'm not sure how we should link to the weapon pages though. Not sure if linking on the name in the table is obvious. Or maybe it is and I just think otherwise because I'm used to recurring-weapon pages being linked there. JBed (talk) 01:00, July 15, 2017 (UTC)

It is probably obvious enough to users. Chances are though, when the separate pages exist, they will find it in Google or in search, or linked somewhere else.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 02:19, July 15, 2017 (UTC)
Looking back at my above comment I didn't explain it well. I think basically that when the separate pages are created that they'll receive enough traction from links elsewhere, and from links from the new weapons list page (ie when the Zodiac list page is moved to /Zodiac? that's still what's happening, right?), that it shouldn't be needed. But anyway, I wanted to ask if we should put weapons in navboxes? I am thinking right now they would bloat the navbox as much if not more than if enemies were there, and we are best relying on the list page instead, though creating an "FFXII Equipment" navbox similar to {{navbox items FFXIV}} might not be too bad, if a little overkill.--Magicite-ffvi-ios Technobliterator TC 00:47, July 20, 2017 (UTC)

Rods' MP bonusEdit

This entire weapon list is fantastic. But the rods are missing their MP bonuses. The bonuses are even mentioned in the description "Rods may end up being a more efficient choice for casters later in the game as the MP bonuses they grant..." but it all says Max MP +/- 0. I'm just trying to make this page even better.

Only the List of Final Fantasy XII weapons/Original has MP+ values, so maybe it was removed from the Zodiac versions. Found this also.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 17:20, August 16, 2018 (UTC)

Mythril SwordEdit

On the Weapon List site it says that the "Smallswords" license is needed to equip this. But this license is not mentioned on the License Board site. It's Reks' initial sword and you can get it later on for your party, but no where is it mentioned who (if anyone) of your party can equip this sword. Sorry that I can't lock-in and do a proper headline, but I'm just trying to help.

Smallswords was a license that was already learned on Vaan's board in the original. It's in License Board/Original. No one has this license on their board in the Zodiac.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 16:16, August 17, 2018 (UTC)

Does Mythril Sword still require Smallswords license, or is it License-free, like Mythril Blade, Sword of Kings or Treaty Blade? If it doesn't, then why is the license stated there? --Kruggov (talk) 21:07, August 17, 2018 (UTC)

It shouldn't be on the list anymore. Click "purge" to view the latest version.Keltainentoukokuu (talk) 21:20, August 17, 2018 (UTC)