Talk:Kuja

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Contents 1 Main antagonist vs. antagonist 2 Epynonomous? 3 Kuja killed the protagonists? 4 Age? 5 Trance Edit War 6 DBZ?

[edit] Main antagonist vs. antagonist

I'm calling Kuja the antagonist of FF9, because it causes most of the trouble in it and wants to rule the worlds, Gaia and Terra. Brahne wants Gaia only, but she was manipulated into working for him, and Garland isn't really a bad guy, but he's just wants to bring Terra's people back from their seeming eternal sleep. He's also one of the final bosses, the other being the non-human Necron. -Eileen-

He is still not the antagonist. And antagonist does not necessarily implie "villain", it's simply someone who opposes the main character(s) (i.e. if it was told from Kuja's point of view, Zidane would have been the antagonist). So storyline antagonists include Brahne (manipulated or not) and Garland (despite that he was "doing the right thing" from his point of view, he still wanted to kill off an entire planet, meaning that Zidane and party had to stop him). Calling Kuja the main antagonist implies the presence of the others, as well as implie that by story, he is the one most focused on (throughout the entire story). In that sence, it wouldn't be wrong to call Brahne the main antagonist of the minor first part of the game. This is why I am changing it back (or at least, I would have, if Tactics hadn't beaten me to it). --Hecko X 05:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't we call him the antagonist and Garland and Brahne "Main antagonists"? He is after all the guy response for all the wars and stuff and he killed both Garland and Brahne. I totally love whoever eliminated that Kuja is a villian, he really isn't. Personally, I just think he's misguilded like Garland. I personally love your argument, I just think he's the antagonist, not the main one because he overshadows everyone else in the art of being an awsome bad guy. (Yeah, I love Kuja =). Tell me if you see where I'm coming from. From Kuja's view Zidane probably wouldn't be the antagonist because he doesn't use his abilities to hurt anyone. Kuja would probably just see Zidane as an annoying thorn in his side.(That's my view at least) -Eileen

FFIX has a thing with not keeping the same main antagonist throughout the entire story, so I guess it would be more precise to actually establish a sort of time frame where he was the main antagonist (since he was more of a "behind the scenes"-kind of antagonist for... I think it was first 3 discs). So saying he was "the main antagonist for the final parts of the main storyline" (though slightly re-phrased) would be far more precise than simply calling him "main antagonist" (but overall, it isn't far from the truth, so his behind the scenes actions are a very important note to make, if we make the change). --Hecko X 20:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd like the change except I would say that something like "Kuja is the behind the scenes antagonist for most of the game from FFIX. (then add your line or maybe combine both.) I think it would improve the article so other people who may not have FFIX will be less confused. Unlike Sephiroth and Ultimecia, FFIX doesn't have one antagonist (which is kinda different from other titles.) Tell me what you think. -Eileen-

Either way, I love his pants. <3 --nekobawt 21:21, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pants? What pants? He's got a G-string and a skirt! XDDD --Mimi Sardinia 17:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Epynonomous?

Can anyone confirm that is his true theme? Phoenix99999

...what? Dazuro 00:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Uh, yeah... Its named "Kuja's Theme" and it plays in Kuja-important scenes. --BlueHighwind 00:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe it's supposed to be eponymous. --Gamer2127 00:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The theme isn't called Epynonomous Kuja's Theme, it's simply called Kuja's Theme. The word epynonomous was being used as an adjective, cause, you know, it is one. Diablocon 00:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kuja killed the protagonists?

That simply doesn't make sense. Unless you somehow believe the heroes would have no idea that they died, Kuja now has the ability to instantly reconstruct dead, injured bodies and resurrect the dead, it makes no sense to assert Kuja killed the main characters with Ultima. They survived his Ultima spell before, so why is it that the second time they would suddenly be killed by it? They never mention dying at all.74.192.123.186 21:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes987

Because just before Kuja uses the spell, he shouts "I don't want to die alone, you're all coming with me!" The resulting explosion whites out the entire Crystal battlefield, so it appears to have been destroyed along with the party members. After they are hit, they are teleported to Hell or4 something like it, which makes no sense, since the Crystal was destroyed and so nothing should exist afterwards. --BlueHighwind ツ 22:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

That makes no sense though. If Kuja blew up the crystal, how come everyone is still alive and the universe isn't gone? Why would Necron need to come out and say he intends to destroy existence, if with the destruction of the crystal, existence is already destroyed? And it seems pretty bizarre and hard to swallow that Kuja's teleportation of the heroes from Memoria also brought them back to life, reconstructed their bodies, and fixed the crystal. You don't even see the Ultima spell blow up the crystal. All you see it do is hit the main characters. The game does not show the crystal shatter or destroy at all. Why would the heroes need to give the heroes the strength to live and fight, if they're already dead? The most succinct and logical conclusion is that Kuja didn't destroy the crystal or the heroes. All he did was defeat them and bring them to brink of death. And at that moment Necron decided to take advantage of the situation and appear.74.192.123.186 23:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

Remember this is fiction, so nothing has to make sense. --BlueHighwind ツ 23:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Well if that's the case, then Ozma is really just Queen Brhane ressurected and itching for revenge. And Dagger is really a man. A piece of fiction has to be consistent within itself in order for it to be an actual story. Especially when it's outlined its own rules and world mechanics that serves as the mythos of the entire story. Saying that "nothing has to make sense" pretty much leaves the story an incoherent hodgepodge of narrative plot devices and irrelevant dialogue. Go by what the story dictates and outlines through its mythos, and it'll make sense. It doesn't have to be GOOD, but it'll make sense.74.192.123.186 23:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

You just proved my point. Your claim that "Ozma is Queen Brahne" is utter fantasy, based on nothing but utter fantasy. Nothing about that statement has any relevance in a real-world sense. You just made it up. I can make up things that don't make sense too: "a two-sided polygon". (More important, but far less clever: I'm looking for translations of FFIX's Ultimania in the hopes that Necron will show up. My only source so far: http://thelifestream.net/tag/final-fantasy-ix/ is pathetically silent on this whole issue.)

The difference betwen me making something up and the creators is my fantastical assertion makes absolutely no sense within the narrative, and I'm not the creator. The creators *can* make stuff up because its their story and they keep up their plot points consistent within their rules of their fictional world. Their fantasy makes sense. So we should follow it and not put forth conjecture that doesn't fit.

And you won't find anything there. The translator there has already said that Necron isn't really talked about. He's only called a god of death and nonexistence. If you want, I'll show you the largest profile for Necron that's out there. It's from the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania which profiles and talks about the characters from each FF.

http://forums.thelifestream.net/active-projects/ff-20th-anniv-ultimania-characters/30/

"Eternal Darkness [Necron] Monster created by fear of death

A being awoken by the fear, despair, and hatred of Kuja, who discovered, with the fulfillment of his ambition near, that he had little time left to live. It rejects the cycle of life through the crystal and attempts to return every world, including Terra and Gaia, to nothing. The final enemy to confront Zidane's team."

Necron is a monster created by the fear of death. That's all. It really is just that simple. 74.192.123.186 23:55, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

So I guess that answers the question of if Necron came from the destruction of the Crystal by Kuja, huh?74.192.123.186 00:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

So I thought the point of a discussion page was to reach consensus on an article's factual content, not just arbitrarily revert valid changes and not even post why. This discussion has been here for at least a week and no one who's reversing the edits has even bothered to discuss the inconsistency of claiming Kuja killed the protagonists when the game itself offers no evidence of it at all here in the talk page. Could some one please balls up and discuss it instead of just reverting the changes without presenting the facts?74.192.123.186 01:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

For the record, it said Necron was awoken by fear and death, not created from it. Oh, and if you want us me to respect your opinion, get an account. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 01:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

That's rather harsh. Annons don't need accounts. Diablocon 01:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

That's true. But I'm still wary and suspicious of them. And if I recall correctly, you said you were too. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 01:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Only when they haven't been around for a while. I'm also wary of new users but the wariness will fade when I see proper contributions. The same is true for annons. However, this isn't the place to discuss that. Diablocon 01:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know one needed an account to make legitimate edits on the pages. Seeing as how you call this the Final Fantasy wiki that anyone can edit, and "it's for fans, by the fans". I didn't know fans were only people with accounts... And its YOUR wiki that says people should be bold and edit. Which I did after I put up the proper discussion in the talk page. Anyways, thank you Diablocon for your kind words and understanding the point I brought up here.66.76.60.163 02:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

You don't need an account to help us out. Although I wonder: If you seriously want to make legitamate and helpful contributions, why don't you feel the need to get an account? - +DeadlySlashSword+ 02:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Because I don't feel like it. What's the problem? A contribution is a contribution, and unless you'd like to amend your welcome page and guidelines to editing, I don't see any reason why my getting an account has anything to do with the veracity and accuracy of my contributions.66.76.60.163 03:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)Makoeyes

It doesn't, and the guidelines won't be changes because this is not the wiki's problem, rather it is my problem. I just thought you might want to be recognized for your contributions, but if you want to stay hidden in the dark, fine by me. - +DeadlySlashSword+ 03:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Age?

Does it say his age or anything?

I think it said that he was created about 24 years before the events of the game, so he's about 24. - Sencilia

      Thanks!

No problem - Sencilia

Just out of curiosity, is it ever confirmed if he is dead? If Zidane tried to help him, and Zidane is still alive at the end...Exdeath64 03:39, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

It hasn't been confirmed if he died OR survived. He might have survived - Sencilia

[edit] Trance Edit War

8bit BlackMage - Now an orchestra will unfold like an angry dip of many layers on the chips of wildest hopes! TALK - All who resist will be beat like naughty little eggs!- 15:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Mining up quotes with my interpretation: Kuja: The souls trapped inside the Invincible welcomed me with open arms. They were fed up with being your prisoners, Garland. This points to neither position. The souls could have welcomed Kuja when he physically encountered them within the Invincible before the battle, or during the battle when he took on the red aura. Kuja: Yes! This is the power I've longed for!!! The mighty power of souls! They assault any threat that tries to destroy them! This may suggest that the first time Kuja felt any power due to absorbed souls was when he underwent Trance during battle. It would be rather odd for him to exclaim suprise if he had already absorbed souls prior to the battle. However, we know that in the gameplay mechanics of Final Fantasy IX, player characters must undergo a surge of emotions, usually due to battle, in order to achieve Trance. The capability to Trance is still there, yet it requires a catalyst to fully manifest. The question is, in my opinion, is the imbuing of Queen's Brahne's soul necessary for Kuja to achieve Trance, or must he undertake damage in addition to this in order to reach the magnitude of Trance seen at Castle Pandemonium? As with player characters, I believe Kuja needed to undertake damage to achieve, otherwise, why would he have not entered Trance prior to the battle? Kuja: It's Trance! You know how it works. But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... When I saw that in Gulug Volcano, I came up with a plan. It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power from wretched souls that can't die... Where did I acquire it? It was the Invincible, or should I say, that large eyeball in the sky? Kuja also knew he could absorb souls in order to initiate a more powerful Trance. This sort of planning suggests to me that Kuja had indeed taken on the souls trapped inside the Invincible before the altercation at Pandemonium, and that the damage taken from Zidane & co. trigged the actual Trance. If you look at a video of Kuja undergoing Trance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL5ZFuDqLX8&feature=related) you can see that there seems to be no link between him and the Invincible. How does he absorb those thousands of souls in a split second? It is my belief, then, that Kuja absorbed the Invincible's souls before the battle with Zidane.

"

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage 15:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Thank you for that post, glad to see someone actually understood.

True, 8-Bit, but there's two problems - first, Zidane and Vivi are both shown to enter Trance at points joining the battle from the start without taking damage, and Mog/Madeen transforms when she protects Eiko, without being in battle. Needing damage to enter Trance is just for the purposes of Gameplay, it's outright stated and shown that Trance is truly caused by a surge of emotion. No other requirement is ever given. Drake Clawfang 15:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

"

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage 15:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Yet Kuja stated that to trigger the absorbed souls he needs to take damage. '"The mighty power of souls! They assault any threat that tries to destroy them!"'

EDIT CONFLICT LULZ: @DC: Your points are true as well, however, note there is still a necessity of surges of emotion, plenty of which was given in the battle. What is undeniably true is that Kuja does not enter Trance until he takes a certain amount of damage in battle. Also, absorbing souls does not necessarily = surge of emotion.

@Kyrel: Good point. This implies that Kuja had the latent souls within him, which were awakened to full potential by the emotion/damage that arose in battle. 8bit 16:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT - Yes, but he states that after already entering Trance and ending the battle. This doesn't prove that he absorbed them during the battle, he could have absorbed them during the battle and they reacted to his injuries. The true issue here isn't what causes Trance, it's when Kuja absorbed the souls. Drake Clawfang 16:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage 15:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Explain his constant taunting like "Show me your true power". And why no effects are shown when he "absorbs the souls". Not even a light from the Invicible is shown - zero, nada.

We are using Trance in order to determine when he absorbed the souls. Saying that Kuja could have absorbed the souls after being damaged is a speculative stretch. In his weakened state following the battle, would it not be rather difficult for Kuja to take command of a whole legion of souls that remained dormant in an airship hundreds of feet above him, especially when said airship does not make an appearance during the Trance-formation? (i is make pun 8D) 8bit 16:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Right I'm ignoring everything you've all said and commenting on 8bit's Ultimania comment. I have a totally legal FFIX Ultimania but have no idea where to look (the whole book is in Japanese you see). Would you (or anyone else) have any idea? --Gamer2127 16:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Where does one keep souls anyway? If Kuja hadn't absorbed them before the battle, where were they? Was he carrying them around? Did he have a little jar to keep them in? --BlueHighwind ツ 16:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The taunting is just that: taunting. People trash talk to piss off the opponent. It's a sign of arrogance. Also, if he were trying to take damage to reach trance, what emotional change would have caused the it. He would not be angry, the enemy would have been playing right into his hand. Perhaps they are the emotions of the souls that he absorbed, not his own.--Werefang 16:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage {{{time}}} Well he doesn't taunt in the final battle, did he lose his arrogance? And he carried the souls like he carries all his magic. In his mind / soul.

BlueHighwind Q? 16:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC) TALK - I Am Vengeance. I Am the Knight. I Am Batman! ツ: Kuja's cheer is broken quite a bit when Garlic tells him that he's going to die.

Since it seems no one can agree, compromise - go for a neutral approach.

"Engaging Zidane and his friends, Kuja enters a Trance and crushes them with Ultima. Kuja reveals that he has absorbed the captive souls on the Invincible, including the soul of Queen Brahne; her greed, hatred and jealousy are the emotional surge Kuja needed to enter Trance. Kuja then kicks Garland off of Castle Pandemonium's precipice and declare he will rule both Gaia and Terra."

There. No definite statement of when the absorption occurs. Also, I'll say this too - I've had enough Edit Conflicts today to last me the rest of summer. Drake Clawfang 16:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage 15:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Perfect for me. As for edit wars, I usually avoid them until I'm being trolled on purpose on EVERY edit I make.

That isn't trolling. He had a different observation of the situation and made it known. Trolling is when you make comments in order to get people to react badly.--Werefang 16:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

As for me "trolling" you on every edit you make, I'm not. It just happens that I have a lot of pages on my watchlist is all, and if someone edits one of them, I'm gonna check it out. Your edit to Gilgamesh's FF12 page prompted me to investigate and solve a conundrum involving the identity of the Orichalcum, so there's a plus. If you don't like people editing a page on your heels, a Wiki really isn't the place for you. Drake Clawfang 16:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage 15:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Until the point it reaches all my latest edits? <_< what a coincidence -_-.

Actually, yes, that's exactly what it is. Let's look at your latest edits...mhm. Kuja, Beatrix' boss page, Gilgamesh's FF12 page, and pretty much all the Dissidia pages are on my watchlist. Hojo from FFXI, Luso Clemens, FF9 Kraken and Memoria are not, hence why I've had nothing to say about your edits on their pages. Drake Clawfang 16:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kyrel - The FF Wiki's Black Mage 15:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Either if that is the truth, or a lie to deceive me. I see no point in doing this as I don't know anyone here (as the other way around ) enough for trolling. -- I use trolling as hating too.

8bit BlackMage - Now an orchestra will unfold like an angry dip of many layers on the chips of wildest hopes! TALK - All who resist will be beat like naughty little eggs!- 16:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC) Neutral edition looks good, with a tweak. To Gamer, maybe you could check the Trance and Trance Kuja pages on your Ultimania, and maybe Castle Pandemonium and Invincible. We would need a Japanese translator... maybe Yuan or ILHI would be willing to oblige? Also, discussion on trolling needs to go back to a usertalk page ^^ EDIT: Fae's taken care of that.

[edit] DBZ?

I'm sensing some DBZ undertones because Kuja, Mikoto and Zidane were all suppose to be sent to Gaia to wreak havoc like a certain tailed race from a popular 90's series? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jio Freed (talk • contribs) 03:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Xepscern - Aerith isn't coming back, people TALK - 03:57, 15 August 2009 (UTC)Lesson, Lesson: If you see a stranger, follow him. There are DBZ undertones in ALL of IX.

Saethori (T / C) — 04:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC) Believe in the future, and persist in the present, that's what I'll do! Please sign your posts. And I don't agree with the supposed similarity... especially considering the beginnings of the Final Fantasy IX story and the beginnings of the Dragon Ball series are vastly different; let alone what happens after the beginning. "Character A has a monkey tail, and Character B has a monkey tail" is insufficient for forming conclusions. Of course, since much of the Dragon Ball story was never localized, or localized well after it became relevant, I can see where many aspects of confusion lie.

Not because of monkey tail only but because of purpose Kuja and Zidane were sent to wreak havoc like the sayins, and I'm talking DBZ since DB never brought up the Alien element of Goku being from another planet. But if you think about it FF IX follows the Raditz arc. With the brothers first meeting one not remembering his mission because of the way he was raised, the evil brother taking and threatening all that is valuable to the good one. The good one pretty much giving it all up to defeat his brother in the end and both of them appearing to die though there ARE differences.-Jio Freed 04:45, 15 August 2009 (UTC)