Red XIII is some kind of magician
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Jorge 00:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I just want to ask, how in the blue hell did Red XIII have kids at the end of Final Fantasy 7? He was the last one of the species, and the only other one known was his father who is now paralized. Did he all of a sudden become asexual? How in the hell did he pull it off? Ideas and Theories welcome.
The fact that he was named Red XIII may imply that there were at least 12 others of his species. At least that's what I've always thought. --dudutsai
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Jorge 00:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Red XIII said himself that he was the last of his species. I always thought that Hojo injected Jenova cells into Red XIII, and that there was 12 other "original" clones. (The Nelbehim survivors) He was the 13th, and his skin is red, so... thats the theory. Maybe the cells just didn't affect him like it affected Cloud.
Goldberry2000 - That was a rhetorical question, and the answer was my fist
TALK - Sandbox 00:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
EDIT CONFLICT: Red XIII was the name and number given to him by Hojo; he was the thirteenth experiment to have jenova cells injected (or about to be injected prior to his escape, i can't remember). His real name is Nanaki. He was NOT stated to be the last of his kind, the guy in Cosmo Canyon stated that the tribe was scattered or something to that effect; remember that between the game and the ending there was supposed to be 600 years, and that seems an adequate amount of time to scour the world for a couple more of thier kind. Seto was petrified protecting the escape of the rest of the tribe, it just so happened that Nanaki was the only one to remain in Cosmo Canyon. The only one to state that Nanaki was the last of his species was Hojo, and he was clearly quite the imbecile for a genius...
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I don't know, there have never been any female lions in FFVII. I always thought that Red had his kids by budding. | |||
Jorge 00:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Nanaki has said that he is the l;ast of his tribe, but Hojo did attempt to reproduce Nanaki with Aeris.
DrakemasterDrake - "I would rather live a short life of glory than a long one of obscurity."
TALK - {{{time}}} The clock on this site is so messed up, why bother? | |||
This is my take on it all. His name is Red XIII because he's red and he was the 13th specimen to have Jenova Cells injected into him by Hojo. His Immune System was so powerful they rejected the cells. He believed he was the last of his race, but, and I may be wrong here, Bugenhagen said he wasn't the last of his kind. Plus, I'm not entirely sure about the 600 years thing, unless the start of Advent Children is 598 years in the future. But, who knows. Final Fantasy often leaves things mysterious and unexplained.
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Goldberry2000 - That was a rhetorical question, and the answer was my fist
TALK - Sandbox 08:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
Advent Children is like... three years in the future. The "ending" of FFVII in which Nanaki has children is set 600 years in the future. This was clearly explained.
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500 years, actually ;) ~Chocobo Knight
Goldberry2000 - That was a rhetorical question, and the answer was my fist
TALK - Sandbox 18:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC) | |||
Considering I haven't played VII for the better part of four years, I consider knowing the majority of the script by heart and a general idea of the timeline to be decent achivements, eh? :P But yeah, 500.
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DrakemasterDrake - "I would rather live a short life of glory than a long one of obscurity."
TALK - {{{time}}} The clock on this site is so messed up, why bother? | |||
The epilouge of VII is 600 years in the future. Advent Children takes place 2 years after VII. AC begins, however, with Red XIII and several more of his kind. This could be the 600 years in the future scene redone, or could mean that ol' Red had kids before that, or yet that he became one in a pack of Red XIII things and he would later mate with one or more of them, or the others 600 years in the future might not be his children.
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Template:Just some guy who knows more about ff7 than virtually anyone Okay Drakemaster...stop talking. Everybody here's the scoop FOR REAL!! the cut scene takes place 500 years in the future, the real truth is that Red 13 was tattooed with a 13 because he was an experiment of hojo injected with jenova cells, they did say that he was the only one left of his species. They never explain how he has kids, for all we know there was another of his species. But in truth everything that we know of how red 13 had kids is just speculation, I mean it's not like they showed some female red 13 with him. so all in all, nobody knows how it happened, because nobody was told, and now I'm just ramblin. And I'd like to give Chocobo Knight a hi five for gettin his facts straight.
Actually in Before Crisis, there IS a female C.C species member shown. The game was never released here, so it is not likely that this is particularly well known. Exdeath64 05:05, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
- The above is true. Also, RedXIII was not injected with Jenova cells. Hojo scrapped that project when he realized that Red had such amazing longevity, & thus could be used to increase the life expectancy of Aerith. The rest of the information here...well, no offense, but it's pretty much crap.Neo Bahamut 19:02, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
Template:Just some guy who knows more about ff7 than virtually anyone I think I'm regretting giving myself that name. Okay I see where your comin from, and I'm glad at least a few people understand, but if you recall in the hotel in the Gold Saucer red 13 talks about how he was experimented on and asks if he's going to go crazy too, to which Tifa just tells him to "Be strong", that implies that he had some of the cells put in him that make all the followers of sephiroth go to the reunion, they just didn't effect him. Now I admit they may not have been jenova cells, they could have been S cells or somethin. I also looked up what exdeath said, and there was another of red 13's species named Deneh, it just said nothin about it in final fantasy 7 (the original) but I also agree with neo bahamut, even though I admit I posted some- inaccuracy's, most of the stuff on this page is crap. Up til about...four posts ago :D
S cells are Jenova cells, the same type that Cloud has. Also, I don't think there's any significant evidence that the S cells are actually different than ordinary Jenova cells, but that's another subject. In any case, I don't recall the quote, so I can't really comment on it. I would say, though, that RedXIII fearing going insane alone doesn't necessarily imply that he has Jenova cells.
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Ah but it does imply that hojo did the same thing to him that he did to the sephiroth clones, which was inject those cells into him. That is what caused the reunion in the first place.
The statement "am I going crazy?" alone doesn't imply jack .... We need context, here. In any case, Red displays no Reunion instinct, so it is extremely unlikely that he has Jenova cells.
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(I don't believe I' mactually entering a FF7 discussion...) Well, he isn't human. Maybe the Jenova cells affect non-humans differently if they do affect non-humans at all? 62.252.178.158 20:48, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
You can tell he is a Sephiroth clone because he has the tattoo. Clones don't get tattooed until after the treatment (case and point: Zack and Cloud were already treated yet both lacked tattoos). As for "no Reunion isntinct," that's explained by real science. When a tissue transplant is performed, patients always go on immune supressants to keep the organ/tissue from dying. Vincents definition of Geostigma proves that at the least, some level of scientific fact is applied to the canon of FFVII. This validates the hypothesis that Red rejected the S cell transplant as the S cells were so incredebly foreign.
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- facepalms for forgetting about tissue transplants* 62.252.178.158 01:05, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
Werefang, that can be invalidated simply by suggesting that Hojo did it differently that time. And as long as we're arguing biology, it would not make sense that Jenova cells were adapted specifically to target humans. Jenova is an alien. Its cells can transform. The evidence for RedXIII having Jenova cells is drastically outweighed by the evidence that he does not. If they wanted to communicate these things, they would have done so. In fact, it probably would have been used in Advent Children, when they actually NEEDED a cure for Jenova-induced illnesses.
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I don't follow. All I see is you dismissing everything that contradicts your claim. I see nothing actually outweighing alternate ideas aside from your bias. All you've said is that he isn't insane, therefore he wasn't injected. I have submitted (more) equally valid proof that he is indeed a clone. Your arguement is based primarily on a minor fact that has been seen in other cases (ie:Zack).
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That's a hefty accusation to level when you jumped right to it without mentioning most of my actual arguments. I recall also pointing out that your argument failed for assuming that Hojo HAD to do things in a certain order, for ignoring the very way Jenova WORKS, & for just not having anything that actually confirms it. Now, about Zack, first of all, the Reunion was not occurring at that time. Second of all, we know that SOLDIERs do not succumb to the Reunion instinct. I will grant you that Red could have similar mental fortitude, but nowhere in the Compilation or the original game is a point made that RedXIII has an immune system that can fight off Jenova cells despite the fact that it would have been relevent in any number of situations. The only one dismissing superior logic in favor of his own bias is yourself. I mean, do you EVEN understand that your ENTIRE evidence is "he has a tattoo"? And you HONESTLY think you have the better position? | |||
And what proof do you actually have? Even without a reunion instinct, Hojo, Zack and Red XIII remain sane while Cloud did not. So lack of reunion instinct is not really valid. Not to mention your entire arguement against my own revolves around "maybe," as in "maybe, even though he did it the same way every time before, he didn't do it that way this time." That's like saying, "even though the sun has risen every morning, today, it will not." Scientific study revolves around repetition. If he did something one way, one time, then it is safe to assume that he did it the same way every time. My arguement is based on the continuation of an Overt trend. So again, who has the weaker arguement?
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You do! YOUR argument is the one that revolves around maybes. Maybe RedXIII just has a strong immune syhstem. Maybe nobody figured out he had the cells. Maybe they don't work on non-humans. Maybe Hojo always does things in a certain order (which is a fallacy, scientists are not robots & they will tell you that themselves). First of all, if you think Hojo was EVER sane & never displayed a Reunion instinct, you weren't paying very much attention. Does "I'm going to give Sephiroth all this power" ring any bells? And before you cite that he said he was doing it because Sephiroth was his son, remember that Cloud has alterior motives for chasing Sephiroth, but we're still operating under the assumption that the Reunion instinct is involved. In fact, he says himself in Dirge, "I failed to consider the fact that the Jenova cells would try to take over my mind & eat away at my soul." Oh, & way to fail in providing examples. I already pointed out that the Reunion was not going on when Zack was alive. The children in Advent Children did not display a Reunion instinct until Kadaj actually enforced his will over the cells. One out. We're arguing about whether or not RedXIII has Jenova cells. Two out. I disproved your only valid example. And in any case, why you're still arguing that point in the first place is beyond me, because I ALREADY pointed out that SOLDIERs & individuals with similar mental fortitude do not succumb to the Reunion instinct. I say again, you see that he has a tattoo, so you conclude that he MUST have Jenova cells & make all of these assumptions to justify the sheer lack of evidence. He doesn't have a Reunion instinct, he doesn't have Geostigma, Sephiroth does not go after him, & Hojo was already using him for another experiment, which since you appear to know SO much about science, you should realize that you only change ONE variable at a time. And quit ignoring everything I said about how Jenova works! Oh, in fact, more on that: We know from Crisis Core that Jenova CAN affect non-humans. Jenova's abilities were used on Sahagins, Ahriman, Griffins, & other things that I didn't even know what they were. /Debate. | |||
Are you refering to "Genesis copies"? That is irrelevant because it is involved in the degredation of Angeal and Genesis. It is not the same thing because, as you demonstrated yourself, S cells have no effect on members of SOLDIER (such as Genesis copies). Of course I know that one variable is changed. Didn't I just say that? You are the one suggesting that there were no constants. And I never said people were machines, I said science is a machine. It is based on repetition (ie:constants) to ensure that only the tested variable affects the outcome. Only one thing would be different between each subject. Hojo is by no means a competant scientist but even he must know something if Shin-Ra hired him in the first place. As for "Lack of reunion instinct," I was only using your terminology. If your going to be so short sighted, I'll use "Neural Degeneration." Cloud and every other clone indicate that with or without a "Reunion Call" subjects are often broken. However, Hojo and Members of SOLDIER are not broken as easily or at all, showing that this "neural degeneration" is not universal. I have no conclusion(at least not official). I accept some level of uncertainty, as all scientists must. I recognise my own potential for bias as all scientists do. My argument is that your own certanty is based exclusively on bias and circumstantial evidence. Is it possible that you are right? Maybe. And no matter how unlikely I think that is, I cannot change reality. You are the one crafting a straw man and attacking loop holes in an effort to stroke your own ego. I'm trying to demonstrate that your own evidance is as deniable as you claim mine is and that you actually haven't proven anything. | |||
No, you're getting uppity with someone who clearly knows the story MUCH better than you do, getting every single one of your arguments blown to complete & utter ..., & then trying to save face by throwing out any logical fallacy you can think of with complete disregard for their actual meanings. All that you've successfully demonstrated is that you can't argue your point without ignoring most of my arguments, misrepresenting the rest, & flinging out cries of "bias!" like a chimpanzee flings its own scat. Case in point: I showed you, with direct quotation, that Hojo had succumbed to the Reunion instinct, yet you're STILL USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE. Someone who admits to their own bias would not do that sort of thing. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Most of the information on this page is crap. But if you want to believe that crap, by all means, be my guest. I, on the other hand, will be over there, not having to listen to some narcissistic tirade about how stupid I am for not accepting the validity of the idea that Vincent is Sephiroth's father, or Sephiroth is really a good guy, or whatever inane theory the fandom has cooked up this time. | |||
"Instinct" implies an act of unconcious will. Hojo demonstrated that he is still sane by the statement, "I failed to consider the fact that the Jenova cells would try to take over my mind & eat away at my soul." As everyone knows, an insane person cannot question their own sanity. Thus Hojo IS a valid example of a sane man with S cells BY YOUR OWN PROOF. Not to mention the Reunon would have driven him to the crater and Sephiroth/Jenova, yet he conciously chose otherwise. If I'm "ignoring your arguement" I am sorry. But I see no valid proof as to why your opinion is the only one. I suppose you are entitle to your opinion but do not come to a website and spout that everyone besides you is a moron. I don't believe Vincent was Sephiroth's father and using that as an attack on me shows just how biased you truly are. If you don't want to debate then don't. But don't start something and then claim the moral high ground by saying "Be wrong." So do as you will on your own, but don't belittle people around you. | |||
The problem is that YOU do not want a debate. At the first sign of critiquing, you automatically cut in with "you're just closed-minded." You kept that ... up every single time you were refuted. Now you're whining about being belittled & attacked? Frankly, you deserve derision & scorn. If not for that, for your insufferable "the more fallacies I accuse you of, the smarter I am!" mentality. Moral highground? What the ... are you talking about? Since when has this been a morality issue? And speaking of that comment, you called me out first, genius.
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How are you not closed minded? I demonstrated that insanity is not a universal outcome with SOLDIER and you claim that it is apples to my oranges. But you can't simply dismiss an overt fact like that by saying "they aren't as human," because, as is also obvious, Red is also not "as human." And this became "moral" when you made an absolutist statement and then called me a moron for continuing it (pretending to want to end the debate and then returning to get the last word). It's a common lawyer tactic: when you can't attack the facts, go for the witness. I'm not whining; I'm pointing out that your own actions and statements show you have no leg to stand on. And you know it. | |||
"I demonstrated that insanity is not a universal outcome with SOLDIER." No. You didn't. I did. Twice. Before you finally caught on. "But you can't simply dismiss an overt fact like that by saying" That's good, 'cause I didn't. Never used that phrase. It's just more of your made up bullshit. "It's a common lawyer tactic: when you can't attack the facts, go for the witness." You mean like, "You're just arguing against it because you're closed minded?" Open mouth, insert foot, huh, Werefang? | |||
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((Just some Guy)) You guys are funny, you've turned a forum page into a page on arguing over how you argue. Now I wouldn't say red 13 was a clone, because he's not human and is nothing like sephiroth, but it is definitely implied that he was experimented on by hojo, and if it's hojo experimienting it's likely to invovlve jenova. I am with Werefang for the most part because it's true what he says, you don't have any real proof to back yourself up neo bahamut, everything you've said is just circumstantial evidence. I honestly think we should delete most of the stuff on this page and answer the question by just saying that in "before crisis" there was a female version of red 13's species.
Michelrpg Well we're never told how red's species reproduce. I mean, his grandfather has no legs and has the abdomen of a skippyball. Add that Hojo somehow got the idea to have Aeris MATE with Red XIII (Furry rape!).... to be blunt; we just dont know, and never will. All I know is that the 400 or 500 year thing is total bullshit. Nanaki is what? 42 years old and according to Bugenhagen this puts him at around the age of 14-15 in human years. So by human standards, after 400 years Nanaki should have been over 133 "human" years.... not even going to the 500 years past part. Let's just face it; Square royally screwed up on nanaki's character. Lets just not ask questions and assume everything made perfect sense in that world. For all we know there's a million of those little bastards that crawled out of Meteor and overtook the world by then.
So what? Either he was old or Bugenhagan was estimating. Also, Crisis Core shows that Hojo's machine alters the genetic structure of the subject(s) placed inside it, so he wasn't going to literally have them mate. And if you read the page before that TL;DR argument, it says (in one of the few pieces of good information on the page, I might add) that he has a mate from Before Crisis. It was kind of tacked on, but hey, in the original game, Bugenhagan even says that it's a big world & RedXIII may meet another of his kind some day.
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MichelrpgI will keep to just FF7 given information and not that load of bullshit square-enix calls "spinoffs"/"prequals"/"sequals" in a desperate attempt to fill the void of plotholes in ff7. But I will go for the "he may find another of his kind" line, I admit I forgot about that.
The spinoffs aren't there to cover plot holes at all. In fact, there are lines in the original game revealing things like the [possible] survival of Rufus & Tseng. The spinoffs mainly exist to establish new plot information, & I don't see why everyone's so against that. I rather like the Compilation. It gives me a chance to see my favorite characters in action again & keep enjoying new stories in the FF world I love the most. inb4 "Awww, gay."
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I'm with Neo here I kinda of like the spinoffs (escept Dirge of Cerberus that has a special place of pure hatred in my heart). I would allow Square to make one more spinoff (hopefully with a kingdom hearts battle system) and the remake of the original.
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I actually like Dirge as well. I used to say the "one more spinoff," line, but then I started questioning why &, honestly, it's just because I'm sick of hearing people ... about the Compilation. Looking at it in that light, I'd be happy no matter how many FFVII installments they came up with, so long as they were good. Also, I'm kind of unsure about a remake, or more accurately, a create re-creation with updated graphics & story info, as that's what everyone seems to mean when they say that.
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There is a female Nanaki in Before Crisis called Deneh,so we can assume that in the future she and Nanaki meet again and breed.And the XIII tatoo on Nanaki´s shoulder is from another experiment,he never had Jenova´s cells in his body.
I already covered this. Trust me, it's not a road you want to go down.
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Why not? I've abandonned this page. I've said my peace and neither of us has said anything at each other for god knows how long. I stalk you sometimes because sometimes you amuse me. And the only reason I'm saying anything now is because of your not-so-subtile insult directed at me.
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1: You clearly haven't abandoned this page, because you've commented. 2: I don't normally do this, but I'm informing the mods that I'm being e-stalked. Seriously, I told them ages ago that you're an annoying troll. Now that you've admitted it, hopefully they'll tell you to buzz off. 3, I insulted no one. I simply implied that he was going to get into a massive argument full of sound & fury signifying nothing.
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Oh? I never said I was trolling you. I simple pop in from time to time to see if you are talking behind my back. "E-stalking" is neither against the rules nor against the law. Your comments are part of public record. I have the right to look if I want. You have declared on more than one occation that I am "bullying" you. Yet I never intentionally insult you. As for your "implication," you were not refering to the so called "tl;dr" discussion above? I was born at night but not last night. And as a matter of fact, I was the one that remained calm throughout it. You were the one shouting insults and losing your head over a differance of oppinion.
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This is an awesome debate. Werefang has already pointed out everything that I would have pointed out, so I'm just going to reiterate what's been said about Denah. 71.172.17.43 16:05, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
The law doesn't matter on the internet. Trolling isn't "illegal" either. E-stalking is creepy as ... & I intend to see something done about it, even if I can't prove trolling. As for the rules? ..., that doesn't matter here, I got it for "profanity" recently. As for the rest, I don't intend to fall into this again. I'm calling Burden of Proof. If you don't have direct confirmation from the Ultimania or ANY of the Compilation material that Red XIII has Jenova cells, I'm not bothering with you. | |||
Actually, trolling is "illegal," at least in most places I've been (most sites make it against the rules, including the FF wiki). Cursing is also against the rules (it's all part of the "don't be a dick" rule). "E-stalking," whether creepy or not, is not against the rules anywhere on the internet. In fact, "e-stalking" is a recognized personal policy, spacifically in the case of WikiJaguars. As for "Burden of Proof," you are a bit late for the party. You were the one that told me I was wrong. I was the one trying to explain that you had no proof that your opinion was the only one. I was the one asking for proof. So, do you have a direct quotation from Ultimania saying that Red was absolutely not a clone. And I am not the one dredging this up. You are the one bringing up a long dead sub-topic, simply to get an extra insult in in the vain hope that I would be too ignorant to notice. | |||
"Your honor, I argue that the defendant is guilty until proven innocent. Derp."
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Does that even mean anything? If you are going to respond, at least make a mediocre attempt at being coherent.
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"The presumption of innocence (the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty) is a legal right of the accused in a criminal trial, recognised in many nations. The burden of proof is thus on the prosecution, which has to collect and present enough compelling evidence to convince the trier of fact, who is restrained and ordered by law to consider only actual evidence and testimony that is legally admissible, and in most cases lawfully obtained, that the accused is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. In case of remaining doubts, the accused is to be acquitted. This presumption is seen to stem from the Latin legal principle that ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof rests on who asserts, not on who denies)." Do I have to draw you a map? | |||
I still don't see the relevence. First: This is not a criminal case. There is no prosecution, there is no defendant. There is nothing to be innocent or guilty of and as such "innocent until proven guilty" is a straw-man rebuttle. So again I say "remain coherent" because you obviously don't know much about the American legal system, or at least expect me not to. Second: This is more akin to scientific research. "When you eliminate all other possibilities, that which remains is the truth." Again, I remind you: you called me wrong, not the other way around. Thus, you have burden of proving that. Nice try though.
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Arcana, I don't really have a problem with you, so I won't turn this into an administrative issue: Please do not edit other peoples' speech. Last I checked, it was considered vandalism. And I'm not too keen on being censored, either.
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